laagvokeles wrote on 28 Apr 2011 19:42:


Sorry Yosef Hatzaddik, but this needs to be said here. I know La'ag quite a bit already, and have no venom for him, nor for anybody. Yet this needs to be made clear, though it may continue to be ignored. And I am speaking specifically to his comments - and I am not addressing the issue of whether the 12 steps is k'neged or with the Torah:

Laag. Perhaps you truly consider your problem (and the problem that everyone else has) with compulsive and progressive porn use and masturbation to be a yir'as Shomayim problem. I think you consider it only a yir'as Shomayim problem. And that is the same whether the person is a frummy seeing prostitutes, too, whether he is happily married or not. I think you consider it a religious problem, period.

I care about your opinion of the Torah, not about your opinion of the 12 steps (especially since you have said that you know very little about them).

You can hide behind the "I am not telling anybody what to do" thing - but you keep saying lies about the Torah, and I hate that.

The Torah heals everything - the tzaddik you quoted was saying 100% true. But you, when you have a chronic headache - do you go to the Torah? Or do you go to a doctor? Perhaps he really does - but do you? Do you suggest that we all should do that?

Families are dying, and you want what? That people should be concerned with the fact that their mental problem needs more Torah? I know many wives and children who are sufferring so deeply this very minute because of their man's problem - and they would strangle you with their hands for trying to keep them away from help because "they must turn to the Torah - it heals everything."

Yes, I agree. If their problem is purely a religious one, go to  the Torah! But who are you to say that if they have cancer, they must not lose faith - "hoi kol tzomei! Lechu lamoyim!" All of a sudden you are Yeshayah hanovi? Tell me, did Yeshayah hanovi have a little porn problem, too?

Which one is it? Please do not argue with me about whether this 'addiction is an illness or not. Clearly for many it is actually not and for many it truly is. Calling any desire at all "an addiction" is misleading and unfortunate - but are you saying there is no such thing for some people, that these too should go to the Torah? Yes, you are.

For many people, the 12 steps are a horrible waste of time and for many, what you keep calling "Torah" is a sad waste of time, too (and certainly assur for those people according to any posek you would ask, who clearly knew the details of the problem that those peolple have).

You are smart, Laag, and you are also a liar. You are lying to your wife about the kind of man you really are, to your 'community' about the odom-godol you really are, and you are even lying to us about what the Torah is for. Just quit the lies, please.

You say that you are not telling anyone what to do. Fine. But repeating a thing makes people consider it. And it is misleading. Totally misleading. Have not all the people on GYE been trying to "use Torah" as a solution to this problem already? Who have you been going to for your solution to your inner problems? Secret pritzus has been your Higher Power for a long time. You secretly kneel and bow to it to solve your problems. And you are the one to tell others to consider that they may  be abandoning Torah by looking in the 12 steps (or elsewhere) for help?

If you have gotten better since you came onto GYE, then I say it was not because of Torah, at all. It was because of the honesty and fellowship - the chevra you have found here. That is not Torah, my friend. And it just so happens that the 12 steps are not doctrine, at all - if you agree with them they work, and if you don't, that's fine - you just need to find something else, that's all. What kind of religion is that!?Oops...but this gets into the "argument-thing" which I told Yosef hatzadik that I would avoid, so no more about that.     

And since I am also a sick man like you, I suspect that you (unless you are clean now and living differently than before) are doing this religious preaching for one reason: lying about the Torah and about yourself allow you to keep your dirty secret so that you can keep enjoying your sweet nechomah of porn.

Lying is the great safety net that you can throw aside, or it will eventually be ripped aside for you by your wife, your children, and your 'kehillah'. Eventually it has to go.

If I am completely off base about you, please be mochel me for being so direct. But until I know otherwise, it is what I believe is true.

hey dov! nice to see u!

dov wrote on 28 Apr 2011 22:47:


in my case i HOPE its only a יראת שמים problem, in other cases i think that at first we dont have to think someone is sick, so first try toiro. Just the problem is that usually this ppl have no interest in starting to spend  more time in shul etc (or whatever needed al pi toiro in his matzav), so they should really go to a doctor and not to the toiro, but im fortunate and i can really dedicate to this time with toiro.

dov wrote on 28 Apr 2011 22:47:


(חש בראשו יעסוק בתורה ;D )

there is a diffrence between חולי הגוף  like headache etc and  חולי הנפש  True that there is מחלת הנפש like OCD etc that also need to be treated by a doctor no doubt, but our problem here is been mentioned 100 and 100 of times in chazal, that it is a very potential taava, i dont want to bring down examples cause its gonna make the post way to long, ill just say that טעמא דקרא why there is איסור יחוד is because the toiro says when you are alone with a woman you kinda out of control...
אין אפוטרופוס לעריות
the story with the תנא that felt that he is going to do it so he started to scream FIRE FIRE.  and many many more
what do i see from all this? that sex is a powerfool thing and a very hard thing to control and like a said the toiro is full of גדרים וסייגים etc etc how to overcome it.
if i would try all that and not manage i have a all megila about that to.... (its not our subject now)

dov wrote on 28 Apr 2011 22:47:

no im not saying that....

not everybody was lucky enough to grow up with a real tora atmosphere etc, so they would not really invest ther energy and seriousnes  by the toiro as much as they would by this doctors research so they shouldnt go the toiro, (and as said above if its proven this guy is sick he should go to the doctor even if he is moshe rabeinu)

Look at all these megillas.
Anyone for a coffee break?

Blue words are mine:

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Apr 2011 23:43:


Laag, you should come with me to the weekends we have twice a year here, where 100+  sex and lust addicts in some stage of recovery - most are (very) chassidish and yeshivish -  come to spend a beautiful Shabbos together (many with their wives). We daven together, have meetings together, eat together, sing and dance together - the whole nine yards. Most are SA members, and every single one of them tried what you call "Torah" before, for years and years. And for every one of them , there are ten more like them out there who are in recovery but not coming for these Shabbosos, and maybe fifty or more 'out there' who are slowly losing their marriages and their lives to an addiction. We walk around like we are fine, but are really bleeding. Eventually blood runs out. But I think you would spend the whole time at that Shabbos-thing trying to interview each guy to understand for yourself exactly how what they tried was 'not really Torah'. No wonder they didn't get better: I guess they were not as good as you or as fortunate as you were to grow up 'really frum'. For such a nice guy, you seem to look down on others too easily, chaver. Saying they are not really good enough is just another easy lie, in my opinion.

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Apr 2011 23:43:
Our problem is mentioned hundreds of times in Chaza"l? I would like you to know that practically every one of the alcoholics and drug-addicts (frum and not frum, Jewish and not Jewish) who I have met over the years who come to SA, SLA, SAA and other lust recovery groups report b'peh echod that their alcoholism or heroin or cocaine addiction runs exactly the same as their sex/lust addiction. It's the same. And every one that I have met tells me that their recovery from alcohol or drugs was so much easier than their recovery from lust. Their recovery from the lust really, really brought them down and to Hashem, in other words.

The principles of Chaza"l about sex and lust are similar to addiction and recovery because they are describing the same body and the machloh is of the body. But they are not talking about crazy people, except in a few isolated cases like R' Elazar ben Durdaya, obviously.

Addicts are just people who themselves come to believe that they are failures at controlling and enjoying their drug. They keep using it and it makes them miserable, but they keep trying to use it, harder and harder. They get more and more desperate and more and more twisted to enjoy and 'make it work right', but remain miserable.

And notice that the solution for R' Elazar ben Durdaya was not Torah, at all. No one there says anything at all like 'Torah fixed him'. No sir. "Moshcheihu l'beis hamidrash" is for normal yidden with lust challenges - not at all for addicts, I believe. Anan lo b'shatyan askinan.

He needed only 2 things:

He needed self-honesty by asking to run away to the mountains and everything else....until he saw ein hadovor tolui ella bee - I am screwed up. the only 'gift' I have for Hashem is the precious honesty about how much of a mess I have made here, so far. That is the 1st step of AA.

Then he needed to really get with Hashem - to die to himself finally. And that is ultimately what the 3rd step is, in the extreme. It is what the Sh'ma is, too, in the extreme. He only needed those two things. They are the entire program of AA's recovery. The rest is just pirusha.

Zil g'mor.

Addicts just need to go about the same path in a different way.

Hey guys, old friend here, I usually don't comment on such delicate matter especially if I lack the knowledge to argue on all that, & I am also the one really believing that most guys on GYE are not addicts (just future addicts maybe if not addressed on time) so that means that 12 steps is indeed not for everyone, but reb "laag" I don't know u, nor do I know how much torah u learn,  u can use 12 steps big time ur ego is way too overblown, guess what we all feel guilty after acting out and run to mikva and open a sifer, it helps zilch as proven by many people and as that story in chazal were the tana was screaming fire! U really think U are raised better or know better torah than him, if u really think so than again 12 steps is very crucial for u, I only did 1st few steps and dropped out for various reasons, but I know that all my sobriety comes from GYE and the few months I spent with the group in the 12 step program, and those weeks I was participating I was the best stage in my life, so u don't make this 12 step program such a joke, and very single word reb dov said is 100% true, I'll finish up with asking mchila here in public, but u r dead wrong my dear friend
I encourage u strongly to join a 12 step program, yeah its a mix on rabunim was pasken shalas and learn torah 12 hours a day to truck drivers who don't even know how to open a sifer, we r all the same bro

KOT

dov wrote on 29 Apr 2011 01:32:


yes for sure its the same (i dont think so, but even if u r right)  its the same for ppl who dont have the toiro, or dont wanna use it, or for goim (what do i mean toiro is an other subject, but its also a way of life אכה"מ , ill just say that i know that most of the ppl dont know how itS suposed to work with toiro, they think its mikva and other superficial things.... oh yes they also do a favor to god and they learn 10 min, it dosnt go like this, u have to really change your life,how? ask a rabbi)

dov wrote on 29 Apr 2011 01:32:


you see here is a thin line where i desagree with you. you call every body who watches porn crazy ppl or addicts, and i call them baalei aveiro, so yes chazal speack plenty about huge baalei taava that they need more gedarim
(the other day someone brought a חינוך that there is ppl who have to make גדרים even about theyr own daughters etc) so u see that they knew that this is a delicated issue and every boddy has to do his own meassurments.

True that there is addicts also, but במושכל ראשון i loock to every boddy as a simple baal aveiro, unless he has ידים מוכיחות  ;D that he is a sicko.

                                                      בקיצור
i agree that there is sick ppl called addicts they need treatment.
but there is plenty of ppl that are just baale aveiro no treatment needed, just to work on theyr midot.

my opinion, about the way i see things through my eyes, no intention of telling any boddy he is wrong or wright


AND ONE THING IS FOR SURE: SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO GET OUT OF THIS PORN THING SHOULD SPEACK TO U DOV.... NOT TO ME

As usual, Laag, you missed my point or just did not understand what I wrote bichlal. Of course most people who look at porn are just with tayvoh and need to work on yir'as Shomayim directly, and only on that. That is for most people out there - and that's why I call them "NORMAL"!!

If you were right, then gedarim is all we really need. What about the kabolah of those gedarim? No - to you all we need is more gedarim. It is nonsense.

I am with you that Rav Twerski and others are completely off-base when they imply that anyone who likes watching porn or masturbating is a sex/lust addict. Of course that is silly, for then every tanna who had a challenge with lust is an addict, then Dovid haMelech is an addict, Zimri ben Salu is an addict, etc. That would be just plain ridiculous. These were not sick people, they just had a tayvoh for whatever reason - some as part of a Divine plan, some because they made a cheit. How are we to judge, anyway?

I believe that there are sick people, people who know better and still use it because they have to. This is not at all 'yodaya bor'oh umiskavein limrod bo' - we are talking about people who are good in many other ways, but not in this one way.

Like Par'oh, they have a hardened heart, as the RMB'M explains it. It is a sickness and they are like klal Yisroel in golus: how is taking away the mikdosh and neviim a way to get us to do teshuvah? If we are no good with neviim and a mikdosh, how will we be better without all that help for kedusha?! Hmm? - Ella what...He knows that until all the levush for help is taken away and we have to crawl to Him without any help, coming to Him just because we cannot survive without Him....then there is hope for us and we will let Him in. In the golus, in the mud davka.

Same for Paroh. He needed many makkos till he relented and broke down to go to Hashem, to know Him a bit.

That is the same for the recovery of an addict. It is not at all the normal way for everybody else who likes porn just because they are guys with testosterone.

And the chinuch thing about the geder for the daughters is for kedusha and to avoid lust - not like for some addicts at all, where such a geder is (at the beginning, at least) in order to prevent them from getting sexual with their daughters. It's completely different and as usual, you are comparing apples to oranges again. Both fruit, yes, but nothing at all more the same.

You probably still do not hear me. Gam zu letovah.

Moderators:

Can we:
Declare this a "debating the validity of the 12 steps" free zone
Move all such debates to a special thread dedicated to that purpose
And give poor Yosef Hatzadik his thread back? : :

(This debate has its place in the world, but it is overwhelming so much other good stuff...)

Sorry - Kosher is right. If Yosef wants me to remove all these posts I'd be happy to, if he cannot. Yes, he does deserve his nice thread back, indeed.

I look for no fights and never intend to 'throw down a gauntlet'. I have met those types here before and their attitude makes me nauseous. I like to live and let live, especially in recovery - except when someone is speaking to a rabim - that's different, I feel. Perhaps I got out of hand, but was really referring to Laag, specifically and not to anyone else or their opinions. I truly feel that he is full of it, period, and that he does not even realize how insincere he really is.

I know Laag a bit, see, and felt that he needed some rump-removal. Since I run a fledgling rump-removal business on the side, I took the opportunity. What with the economy, and all.

Hope it was fun for him.  :-*

Love you, Laag! (and Yosef H.)

dov i cant wait to start to want to get better, and then i hope youll have pacience to me and help me.
but we simply have a מחלוקת in one thing, wich is: does the toiro speack about heavy heav baalei taava or not, i think yes (im not 100 % sure about your opinion, but u intend to say mmm i dont know.)

goim think that homosexuals is not theyr fault for been so, i once saw a אגרות משה throwing the all ball on a guy that said he is homosexual there is also the ramban that says that ppl that are way to much using sex, they will eventually wanna do it even with animals.

there is also a bet halevi that i quoted once here ill quote it again
laagvokeles wrote on 14 Mar 2011 10:42:


bekitzer sweet dov i hope u will have pacience to me one of this days, as u already had a few weecks ago, cause "i have a feeling" that soon is gonna be the good cheishek day that ill need your guidence to make out the most of it
git shabes

dov wrote on 29 Apr 2011 15:15:


Couldn't have said it better myself.  And this is why the whole discussion is not really about 12 steps vs. no 12-steps or addict vs. non-addict.  It contains a much deeper message which we could all (myself included) do well to keep in mind.  It's simply this laag is basically hopeless until he gets off his high horse.  To guote the "toirah" (The Maharal in Derech Chayim, Perek Gimmel, Mishna Aleph) which Laag is so fond of hiding behind: 

ולכך צריך האדם שיסיר ממנו כח יצר הרע אשר הוא סבה אל החטא  ויצר הרע מתגבר באדם מכח גבהות הלב וכל תאוה וכל קנאה וכיוצא בו מן הדברים אשר הם גורמים שיבא לידי חטא מתחדשים מכח גבהות הלב

Dear chaver,

As long as you keep quoting chazals and igros Moshe's about this stuff you still have no idea what I am talking about. In fact, I bet you don't even know what you are talking about!

Homosexuality and even a desire to mess around with animals has nothing to do with this problem. I sincerely believe that if a guy messed around with animals a few times in his life, it does not make him an addict at all. You still do not hear me.

It has nothing to do with how bad the aveiro is. it has nothing to do with whether it is an aveiro at all. it is the same as drinking, using cocaine or gambling - the drug does not make you an addict!! You do.

If you use it compulsively and do not stop, even after you ask a rov and really try to quit even using what you like to call 'the Torah'...then it is poshut that whatever the philosophy says and whatever is right or wrong - the rov and what you call 'the Torah' is not working for you.

So?

That's all. There is no issue to argue about. No right or wrong, no good or bad. There is no mitzvah I am aware of that is to 'follow the heiligeh 12 steps'. Is there? Do whatever you want. Maybe there are 50 other ways to get better. I have no idea.

Those who want to watch their lives swirl down the smelly toilet (clutching their 'Torah' close to their breast, of course), gey gezunderheit, I will not stop them and cannot, anyhow. Kol mi sh'ein bo deyah, assur lerachem olov.

You are a first class whiner, not a philosopher, and not a chochom. And though I am fine telling you all this face to face, boruch Hashem I haven't the time to waste.

I am sober today by one thing: Hashem's Chessed that I do not deserve. Period. You do not deserve it either, so we have a lot in common already.

Have a nice trip, whatever your name really is.

No! No! Dov, Get off your high horse that UAJ said is an expression, he didn't mean that!

But seriously Dov, if you keep on posting replies it's you who has the problem.

all i ment by this animal and homosexuals is one thing:

its a very tempting aveira and u get addicted to it, but u dont get  any more any pleasure, by the missionary way  so you keep on rolling till u fall to the animals and homosexuals, and still the toiro speacks to those ppl also שובה עד ד' אלוקך

in other words our bible speacks about heavy heavy baalei taava that were straight, now they need animals to feel pleasure, and still  שובה עד ד אלוקך

Dear Me3,

Boruch hashem I am mekabel your daas here and only checked this thread at all because i saw your name as the author of the last post. When I stared this response, it notified me that there was a new response - from my chaver Laag. Hashem helped me have the wisdom and acceptance not to read it. And I will still bl"n not read it, for the time being.

You have helped me beyond measure already and it is really amazing at how Hashem sweetly uses all kinds of people to help us! Who would have thought that Laag would (accidentally) help my recovery so much? By remaining free of needing to respond to him, my recovery is boosting up a great deal and I will live better that I could have before the issue became an issue!

Not to c"v compare Laag the sweet yid to anything bad, but in a similar way, if we all knew how much we gain in sanity and recovery simply by avoiding and asking hashem's help to actually gain some freedom from loshon hora, tarfus, (and shtus like the pretty lady's image in the next car), we would have tremendous hakoras hatov to all these challenges...and still run from them kboreiach min ha'esh.

I love you and this life so much!