laagvokeles wrote on 28 Apr 2011 19:42:
ill just say one thing: i know a huge gadol called toiro its a remedy for everything.
so i learn pshat that this gadol sends ppl to 12 steps.... wich (ווערלעכע?) ppl?
i dont believe that someone who can managed that his all day should be al pi toiro etc etc needs anythig allse
my opinion....
do me a favor and tell me who is this gadol
second favor: can u ask him if he would also send to 12 steps someone that can be the all day in shul learning and sayig tehilim (איך בין מגזים צי ארויס ברעינגען מיין נקודה) i wonder what he is gonna tell you then (if he is a real godol
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Sorry Yosef Hatzaddik, but this needs to be said here. I know La'ag quite a bit already, and have no venom for him, nor for anybody. Yet this needs to be made clear, though it may continue to be ignored. And
I am speaking specifically to his comments - and I am
not addressing the issue of whether the 12 steps is
k'neged or
with the Torah:
Laag. Perhaps you truly consider your problem (
and the problem that everyone else has) with compulsive and progressive porn use and masturbation to be a
yir'as Shomayim problem. I think you consider it
only a yir'as Shomayim problem. And that is the same whether the person is a frummy seeing prostitutes, too, whether he is happily married or not. I think you consider it a religious problem, period.
I care about your opinion of the
Torah, not about your opinion of the 12 steps (especially since you have said that you know very little about them).
You can hide behind the "I am not telling anybody what to do" thing - but you keep saying lies about the Torah, and I hate that.
The Torah heals everything - the tzaddik you quoted was saying 100% true. But
you, when
you have a chronic headache - do you go to the Torah? Or do you go to a doctor? Perhaps he really does - but do you? Do you suggest that we all should do that?
Families are dying, and you want what? That people should be concerned with the fact that their mental problem needs more Torah? I know many wives and children who are sufferring so deeply this very minute because of their man's problem - and they would strangle you with their hands for trying to keep them away from help because "they must turn to the Torah - it heals everything."
Yes, I agree. If their problem is purely a religious one, go to the Torah! But who are you to say that if they have cancer, they must not lose faith - "hoi kol tzomei! Lechu lamoyim!" All of a sudden you are Yeshayah hanovi? Tell me, did Yeshayah hanovi have a little porn problem, too?
Which one is it?
Please do not argue with me about whether this 'addiction is an illness or not. Clearly for many it is actually
not and for many it truly
is. Calling any desire at all "an addiction" is misleading and unfortunate - but are you saying there is no such thing for some people, that these too should go to the Torah? Yes, you are.
For many people, the 12 steps are a horrible waste of time and for many, what
you keep calling "Torah" is a sad waste of time, too (and certainly assur
for those people according to any posek you would ask, who
clearly knew the details of the problem that those peolple have).
You are smart, Laag, and you are also a liar. You are lying to your wife about the kind of man you really are, to your 'community' about the odom-godol you really are, and you are even lying to us about what the
Torah is for. Just quit the lies, please.
You say that you are not telling anyone what to do. Fine. But repeating a thing makes people consider it. And it is misleading. Totally misleading. Have not all the people on GYE been trying to "use Torah" as a solution to this problem already? Who have
you been going to for your solution to
your inner problems? Secret pritzus has been your Higher Power for a long time. You secretly kneel and bow to it to solve your problems. And
you are the one to tell others to consider that they
may be abandoning Torah by looking in the 12 steps (or elsewhere) for help?
If you have gotten better since you came onto GYE, then I say it was not because of Torah, at all. It was because of the honesty and fellowship - the chevra you have found here. That is not Torah, my friend. And it just so happens that the 12 steps are not
doctrine, at all - if you agree with them they work, and if you don't, that's fine - you just need to find something else, that's all. What kind of religion is that!?Oops...but this gets into the "argument-thing" which I told Yosef hatzadik that I would avoid, so no more about that.
And since I am also a sick man like you, I suspect that you (unless you are clean now and living differently than before) are doing this religious preaching for one reason: lying about the Torah and about yourself allow you to
keep your dirty secret
so that you can keep enjoying your sweet nechomah of porn.
Lying is the great safety net that you can throw aside, or it will eventually be ripped aside
for you by your wife, your children, and your 'kehillah'. Eventually it has to go.
If I am completely off base about you,
please be mochel me for being so direct. But until I know otherwise, it is what I believe is true.