david712 wrote on 13 Apr 2011 16:54:


Yes. This is what I meant.

david712 wrote on 13 Apr 2011 19:13:


ולכל בני ישראל לא יחרץ כלב לשונו  ;D

Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 12 Apr 2011 18:30:


After 8 months (two complete cycles) of the great GYE 12 Step Phone Conferences I am still having setbacks in my recovery. Why? What isn't working? Why can Dov have 14 years (!) and i only 6 months? Why when do I find it sooo hard to restart after falling into the mud?

I spoke to a Rav. A major Talmid Chochom & extremely knowledgeable person. He responded that, like everything else, it gets stale. I must find a new aspect, a fresh twist, periodically. To keep it alive, to prevent myself from becoming lethargic.

I laid forth my inhibitions toward accepting & embracing the 12 Steps completely without filtering it through the lens of the Hashkafa which I had ingrained from my upbringing. After all, is it different than listening to a cristian sermon at Sunday mass? Most of what they say is compatible with the Torah. (I heard it on Sunday over the radio.  ;D ) Why are the 12 Steps different?

His answer was slightly different that those who say that the 12 Steps are compatible with Torah. He asked me, "Where do you think Bill took it from? They don't have the chomer (raw material) for such a program. How did he come up with it? Bill took it from us!

"If I would have the time, I would be able to show you every line in the book where they took it from." (I was thinking: Wow! It takes a major Talmid chochom to be able to make such a statement!)



In secular colleges, the worst offense that you can commit is plaugerism. If our goal is to learn Hashem's Torah, do I mind if it was translated by non-jews? Is this to be compared to Talmai Hamelech's version of the Talmud or  Artscroll's?

If I didn't write you this post, און הפסד גדול מזו!!!
    "they say" about the beis yosef... that he once broke his head over a sver mishna, trying to get psaht. After much ameilus he was m,echavein to a beutidukll hesber kipshuto shel leshon hamushna. When he walked into the beis medrash he overheard a child learning that very same mishna, and when he listened to hear how the נער explained it, he was astounded and shocked to hear him say the very same pshat. How could it be that he coudln't understand a m,ishan as well as a child, why did it take him days to reach the svara rishona of a child?        [someone, mybe his maggid] answered him that he was migaleh that pshat through his ameilus batorah, and once he was megaleh it anyone has reshus to freely be mechavein to it.
          Considering that there IS chochma by goyim, is it such a 'far cry' to say that they could guess something right? Tell me, with all the psychology books out there, how many of them where mechavein to the ba'alei mussar? I personally have found much of the steps and 'mottos' 'slogans' in the Pri Tzedek (see what he says on shovavim).

          However if you keep trying to re-word everything "12 step" to mareh mekomos you miss some of the piont. Since you are assuming you fully understand all the psycology they escribe to each step. And you therefor pick your mareh makom accordingly, however there will be mareh mekomos you will skip and miss, the benefits of which can be found in the "steps" (bekitzur the steps have alot of tochen, and you need a big shrink to sit with a big talmid chacham to re-write them as a torah sefer.)

Old friend wrote on 21 Apr 2011 16:45:


and I was afraid of all this 'hidden' toichen:
Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 14 Apr 2011 23:50:

Welcome back.

even if 12 steps are al pi toiro, there would still be no reason why to "learn" the 12 steps, there is plenty of sefarim that speack about kedusha etc.
and even that the 12 steps have proven it self, also toiro has proven it self... many ppl changed theye life with teshuva including learning the proper sefarim (dont go learn baba mezia.... you need to focus on your problem...), and have today a happy life.

True that there is among us a lot of ppl that "doctor" and "research" speacks to them more then "rabbi" and toiro, they should really use the 12 steps, but ppl that have strong feelings and big emuna in the toiro, just have to decide to do tshuva and learn sefarim about kedusha, every boddy what he likes and feels it helps him, and if by chance he feels better with the 12 steps no problem

this is what i think, im not telling no boddy what to do

Please,

Please,

DON'T BRING THAT DISCUSSION/ARGUMENT/FIGHT to this thread.



Reb Laagvokeles,

I did check out what the 12 Steps are. Over 8 months of studying them. There were still some misgivings in my heart, so I asked Daas Torah.

The Godol whom I asked is someone who is GREAT in Torah & is GREAT in advising people. Many, many people come to his door to to speak to him (Including Guard). He told me that simply learning Torah DOES NOT work for this. Marriage DOES NOT work for people in our circumstance.

He told me, "The Program works. It works. I have sent a few people to this program."

His words are very valuable in my eyes. His telling me that THIS is what works, works for me. You are welcome to ask a Talmid Chochom whom you respect. You might get a different response.



BTW, I was told that this Godol is against studying Secular College 'knowledge'......

:-X

ill just say one thing: i know a huge gadol called toiro its a remedy for everything.

so i learn pshat that this gadol sends ppl to 12 steps....  wich (ווערלעכע?) ppl?
i dont believe that someone who can managed that his all day should be al pi toiro etc etc needs anythig allse
my opinion....
do me a favor and tell me who is this gadol
second favor: can u ask him if he would also send to 12 steps someone that can be the all day in shul learning and sayig tehilim (איך בין מגזים צי ארויס ברעינגען מיין נקודה) i wonder what he is gonna tell you then (if he is a real godol )

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Apr 2011 19:14:


This is also part of my 'mehalech'.

Since joining the great GuardYourEyes Kehilla, I am (almost) constantly thinking about this inyan. When I learn (many times, at least) I try to see a twist in how it connects to our situation. (As can be seen in my Yosef Hatzadik's Ha'oros thread).


Someone quoted to me the Mashgiach, Harav Moshe Wolfson Shlita, who said to him in reference to GYE, "minay u'bay shadeey bay narga".

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Apr 2011 19:42:


Already asked him:
Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 28 Apr 2011 19:29:







Yosef Hatzadik wrote on 28 Apr 2011 19:29:

Keep it in the thread that Me3 kindly started, dedicated for those who want to avoid the 12 Step Program.

:-X
who is the gadol?
(im sure if ILL ask him he is gonna answer diffrently )

I sent it to you via PM.

I prefer not to post his name on the public forum.  (I am afraid it may compromise my anonymousness.)

yosef yosef!
you are special

laagvokeles wrote on 28 Apr 2011 20:08:

עכשיו אתה תופס את הענין