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TOPIC: Religious pain 1169 Views

Re: Religious pain 09 Jun 2025 05:28 #437091

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Just to be clear before I begin:

I’m not criticizing anyone personally, and certainly not the sincerity behind what was shared. I’m responding in general to the way certain ideas are often used in these conversations, sometimes with the best of intentions, but in ways that can unintentionally minimize pain. I’m sharing my own experience and reflections, not trying to argue.

I want to say something a little vulnerable. Honestly, I am very intellectually oriented, and my first instinct was always to give the “right” answer, the one that checks all the boxes. It’s taken me years, and I’m still learning, to understand that the deepest response to pain is not always explanation, but empathy. You’ll probably even see that matter of fact tone in some of my earlier posts.

Pain is real, and so is feeling for others. That, to me, is the depth of the Mishnah: “Al tenachem adam b’sha’ah shemeiso mutal lefanav.” There’s a time to listen, not explain.



What I believe trueme is saying, and is understandably really hard to hear, is that there is a system.



Hashem’s system.



And while things were and may still be painful, hurting and dark, and it feels as though we have been let down by those who we trusted, this is all part of Hashem’s plan for us to grow into the light-filled, happy, successful neshamas we have the potential to be.


Yes, and I understand that view. But sometimes, part of Hashem’s plan includes our outrage at injustice, and our compassion for those who were hurt. That is how His middos are expressed in this world.

Just to be clear, I’m not critiquing you personally or your belief, I’m responding more broadly to how these ideas are often used in ways that unintentionally silence pain. I really do appreciate that you’re engaging thoughtfully.

The Gemara tells us Hashem feels our pain with us. The Nefesh HaChaim adds: even more than we do. Hashem is the source of all reality. If he feels our pain it must be that pain, empathy and emotions are also emes. Objective reality is not the only thing that exists, subjective pain has its place on the landscape of truth.

We were put here to fix what’s broken, within ourselves and, when possible, in the world around us. That’s not a contradiction to bitachon, it’s part of our avodah.

It is not our job to sit silently on the sidelines while people are destroyed or hurt.

It is our privilege to bring clarity, truth, and light into the world, wherever and whenever we can.



I think that while the importance of this point cannot be understated, there is a great need for trust between the two parties in the conversation for the message to be received at all, let alone well and effectively.


I hear you. But to clarify, I wasn’t reacting from misunderstanding. Like R’ Yitzchok pointed out earlier, the message simply wasn’t relevant to my post. I wasn’t criticizing “the system,” I was pointing out when people misuse it.

If we refuse to acknowledge abuse or misuse and instead sugarcoat it under the banner of “the system,” then we unintentionally validate that behavior as part of Torah. And that’s dangerous.

There are many Torah concepts that people cling to in the form they first heard them, often as children, and never revisit. The Alter from Kelm, in his Piskei Baal HaBatim, already lamented this, people holding on to a cheder-level understanding of Ma’aseh Bereishis.

Sometimes what we heard wasn’t deep enough, or wasn’t even accurate. We repeat these phrases as if they’re sacred, but they’ve lost context and content.

True kavod haTorah means revisiting our ideas and letting them grow with us. That takes honesty. It takes asking:

    •    What does this actually mean to me?

    •    Where do I see it in my life?

    •    And, scariest of all, is there a part of me that struggles with it? And why?

That’s not weakness. That’s maturity. I hope to explore this particular concept more in a future post

Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Religious pain 09 Jun 2025 05:36 #437092

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SisonYishecha wrote on 09 Jun 2025 03:26:
WOW.

Just made it here and I'm blown away by the clarity and stinging truth of what's been written thus far.

I've been klopped, bopped, smashed, and a lot more, by the system for as long as I can remember.
There has been times that my survival method was flight and I would kinda find my own corner of society, and there's been times when I hacked it and was a very active part of unzere velt.

So I can very much relate to some of what's been written.

Just to try and bridge the gap a bit between @bright and @trueme, it hit me as follows.

What we each experience on a personal level can very much be used as a growing experience.
More than that, what we experience is meant to be a tool for us to increase our self awareness, to discover reservoirs of strength and resilience that we never knew or imagined that we had.
In that vein, pointing fingers at any external cause, be it the system, the weather, or the POTUS, we are not only missing the lesson - but we are losing an opportunity.

A golden opportunity.

But when we look back or when we contemplate how the system is affecting others, then we are entitled to point out potential flaws, in a productive manner.

סתירת זקנים בניין, וד"ל.

And on that note, it has long bothered me the extent that the current Yeshiva system seemingly has no awareness for the Eibeshter.
We have an abundance of Torah, Lomdus, maybe even a tad of Hashkafa.
But who speaks about Hashem?
Does your average Mesivta Bachur even know that there is a concept of having a personal kesher with our Father in heaven?
Beis Medrash Bachur?
Kollel Yungeleit?

Why is the Yeshiveshe Oilam seemingly so uncomfortable about discussing the Eibeshter? About openly admitting that "I talk to Hashem on a personal level, even not during davening.

Something seems to have gotten lost along the way, and with all of our zeal for Toirah, Un Nor Toirah, I think we may have forgotten some of the most basic tenets of Yidishkeit.

Sorry if I offended anyone.
I'll stop here.

Oh, one last point that came to mind and I can't resist.

When we have awareness of a kesher with Hashem from a young age, then that kesher is unwaverable even once we leave Kollel and are no longer in a matzav of תורתו אומנותו, wouldn't that be just amazing if that could take place?

What? You mean you can get a job and be a tzaddik?!? Phooey, you think moshe Rabbeinu and reb Chaim Katie sky would hold of such a person? Every second of toira is precious, he’s wasting his life! Ay ay yay yuy. Talking to the ribbona shel Olam you think you are on aza madreige? We would be lucky if we just feared the eternal fire of gehinom! Having a Kesher with the ribono shel olam is for bts and hippies. It’s fluff! Oh gevalt. Shoymu shomayim! I must petition from the gedolim to close this whole thread! Let’s see how many haskomos I can get to pasel them!

I had to get that out of my system sorry.
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Religious pain 09 Jun 2025 05:39 #437093

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Just to be clear the above article is to be read with an eicha nigun….
Nothing good grows in the dark. 

Re: Religious pain 09 Jun 2025 05:54 #437095

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I had to get that out of my system sorry.

All needs are valid.
There is no subjective reality as you taught us

No need to apologize 
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