Happyme0 wrote on 20 Jun 2012 22:25:


Please, chaver, do you personally know anyone who actually refrained from indulging in tayvos olam hazeh because Shlomo Hamelech said "hey, I tried it all, it's a big waste of time! (most of sefer koheles)"?

I think there are many such people. And I think they are humble enough not to advertise their achievements or to promote their 'derech'.

MT

Dear MT,

If they loved others then they would share, as I believe you do. I just have not met any, so I ask.

Second, with all due respect to Happyme0, in his post he never said he quit - and if he did imply that, I have met many who have taken extraordinary measures and overcome extraordinary nisyonos, only to fall back into the old patterns later. Thats the pattern of 'success' that chizzuk offers. I feel that the legendary romance with the RMB"M's "Baal Teshuvah gemurah" is a common fantasy in many failed lives I know personally.

Many people proffer advice. The new guys in meetings are often ready to share "what made the difference for them" to others, and they often do. But after three days or three months of 'success', they may really have just been holding their breaths. Some people can hold their breath one day at a time...that is not recovery and i would not want to buy that 'success' with any money.

I admit that my words here may come off as snooty, aloof, or whatever - if you or others want to see them that way. But I know that do not mean it that way, at all. I am only trying to say that experience in actual struggle and long term success is worth sharing - as Rav Dessler would say, he never spoke anything that he did not struggle with and experience himself. Platitudes - no matter how right they may be - remain useless.

So to Happyme0, I say please keep sharing more and more! But if you want to actually help others (which you clearly do!) then I have found it is far better to clarify where we are actually holding in our own recovery or lives. Our struggles, successes, and failures - past and present - are worth far more than good, true advice is.

Ask Yosef Hatzaddik about this, too. He will share his experience if you dont believe me and I mean the Torah's Yosef haTzaddik, as well as the forum's member "Yosefhatzaddik".

Gut Shabbos all sweet yidden!!

Hatzlocha!!



Besides yourself, do you know any such people? Sure there are many who have resisted a temptation here or there becs someone said "gevalt! Don't do it! trust me, it's a waste of time!" But I do not know any personally. How many do you know personally?

Here's what I think about this (L'Aniyas Daiti, and I have close to no experience with this...)
If it would be easy to bring oneself to a level in Yiddishkeit where his RUCHNIUS stops him from doing something, life wouldn't be much of a challenge, would it?
I'm sure it is possible. I'm sure it can be done SOMETIMES. Reb Dov is saying it just isn't reliable enough for an addict. And, that he doesn't know anyone like that.
The 12 steps mehalech works, more or less instantly to an extent, and if we continue to work them they will work forever. That is reliability- we have Hashem, our Rock, always there and available if WE are willing to do our part.
Of course one must strengthen their ruchniyus. No doubt about that. But to rely on it alone is fallacy when someone like Reb Dov tells us from experience that it doesn't work. And it may border on gaiva, too. Chazal tell us to listen to people that have succeeded in challenges that we go through.

Hatzlacha, all.
Meir

I never said anything about "the 12 steps" in the above comment, and I never have said that the derech Hashem has given me (SA and the 12 steps) is the only way that actually can work for anyone. Actually, I believe that cannot be true. Harbei shluchim laMakom. There must be many ways to 'make it' - for all people, not just for Yidden, but for goyim, too.

But let suggestions be based on actual personal experience borne of failure - with details about what the failure was - rather than descriptions of success, alone.

Vorts and advice are usually based on inspiring people. But inspiration was always what we tried in the past - and we failed. Trying yet more, or better inspiration is just "doing the same thing over and over, yet expecting a different result." Some call that 'insanity', you know.

In contrast, recovery is based on failure. Learning from failure and redemption of other people who failed as we did - yet discovered a way out when all hopes were lost. Hashem meimis umechayeh, morid sh'ol vayo'al.

Dear Bochur,

See our "First Time Here" page for 10 suggestions to help you get started on your journey to recovery.

Every situation Hashem puts a person into can be used as an opportunity for growth. You are fortunate that you are willing to work on your problem at such a young age. The earlier one learns control in this area, the easier it will be to stop. The longer you wait, the harder it will be to stop. Although this is a tremendous nisayon that many people are falling into today, it is very dangerous and it can spiral out of control and do a lot of damage in this world and the next, chas veshalom. These behaviors are very addictive, and an addiction is a disease that only gets worse. If a person doesn't work on this, it can also damage their future marriage chas veshalom. It is causing many people to get divorced today.

Here is something very important for you to know. Chazal say: "There is a small organ in a man, if you feed it - it is hungry, if you starve it - it is satiated". Basically, what that means is the Less you Feed It, the Less you Need It.

Hashem created many things, which all have a purpose. Each creation is made out of different parts, and each part has its particular purpose too. Hashem also created the human being. We also have different body parts with different functions. So too the genital area has also its purpose (to urinate) but it also has a different purpose, which we are told in the Torah comes into function after marriage. The shulchan aruch tells us exactly how it works, and when you get older and especially when you get married you learn exactly how and when to use them in a tsniusdikke and Torah way so we stay holy and pure always. If you start using these parts before marriage you will not know how to use them and you will make mistakes and therefore do things that will harm your body and your neshomo. That is why Hashem told us not to do anything in this area until marriage, and tsnius helps us to achieve this purpose. Unfortunately goyim don’t have the Torah and that is why many of them don’t know how to use these parts of their body and they do it very often in an untsniusdike way. Unfortunately sometimes (frum) Jewish people learn from the goyim. That is one of the main reasons why so many goyim divorce, although there are other reasons as well. It all has to do with knowing about marriage and understanding all parts of your body and how to use them. Once you get married, you will know how to use every part of our body in a tsniusdikke Torah way, exactly like Hashem wants us to. And then you won't have anything to hide, you will always feel tsniusdik and know that you are doing the right thing and have nothing to be ashamed of.

Your parents will understand if you tell them that you once saw some things on the computer that you shouldn't have seen, and now you feel a nisayon and you think it's important they should put on a filter.

See also this page: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ2.asp />
Be brave and show your parents this page: Why I need a Filter

They will be proud of you for telling them what bothers you, and about your tests. Everyone understands what a big test this is today, and your parents will want to help you in any way they can.

See this page also, for chizuk on stopping shichvas zera: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/FAQ/FAQ1.asp />
Download the "Guard Your Eyes Handbook" for detailed hadracha on how to break free of this addiction. It has 20 tools in progressive order - as well as 30 attitude and perspective principles. If you want to break free, you will find all the information you need in this handbook. (You can also read it online here).

Be strong, Hashem is with you!

dov wrote on 24 Jun 2012 03:56:


R' Akiva taught us, as the water on the stone taught him, that doing the same thing over and over - especially regarding Torah which is like water in this respect - will indeed eventually penetrate and yield different, better results.

MT

Machshovo wrote on 25 Jun 2012 15:12:

Well, I suppose Rabbi Akiva didn't worry about daily masturbation, porn escapades, and visits to prostitutes, so his life wasn't in danger while he has waited 24 years for the water to penetrate the stone.
Incidentally, I think the pshat in this ma'ase is totaly different, and that perserverance does not equal mindless repetition, but I am not gonna start trading pshetlach.
Not many of us will live to be 120 and look back and say "ah, my preserverance at doing the same thing paid off". Successful business models are those that allow for a quick failure and restart in a different direction. If a company keeps making an unpopular product, their persistence and insistance will run them into the ground. A savvy business man knows when it's time to burn a failed prototype and start anew.
So Rabbi Akiva's success was rooted in his persistence on following a proven path, not on insisting that he can be a good Jew while remaining an ignorant sheppard.

As they say every now and then in GYE, "Whatever works for you (or for me)".

Or as King Solomםn said: כל אשר תמצא ידך לעשות - בכחך עשה

MT

The only question is: Is it working for you, has it worked for you in the past, and can it work for anyone else?

Ooh, easy now, Obber.

MT is interpreting Rabbi Avika's mayseh according to Rav Yisroel Salanter's p'shat, that R' Akiva tried to learn and saw no success. So he gave up and hated those who seemed to be succeeding at it, ad k'dei kach that he said "show me a talmid chochom and I'll bite him the way a wild donkey does!"

You can debate about whether this interpretation implies that he just gave up too early - or if the way he was learning was part of his problem, too. But that may not be the point here, with respect to recovery.

It's poshut that Happyme0 is not sharing about his failures and simply saying the truth! The problem with that is that saying something that happens to be true does not help! Hashem through his nevi'im has said the truth many times to us - and yet here we are in golus, still not getting it right! The gemorah says that Haman getting the ring from Achashveirosh did a more effective job of getting the message through to us than all the 48 nevi'im and 7 nevi'os did.

Nu. So I guess saying something that is true is not always the answer.

For those here who are really concerned about spilling seed enough to stop - please, please, STOP!!

But for those who try to stop for years and years and instead of stopping just get worse and worse....growing up means admitting that yelling the same truths about the sin of wasting sperm or ruining the eyes will not help them, so please, please, STOP the charade!!

Find an answer that will really work. I say to you that there are two madreigos here:

Torah - the sin of 'spilling seed' aspect, good and evil;

and

Derech Eretz - a spoiled body that runs the show year after year, a twisted mind that keeps it all a secret as though that will help, a ruined view of Hashem and other people to only feel either very close - or very far, in other words: insanity.

MT and Happyme0 are 100% right and good! But they are talking Torah, they are talking yetzer hora. They try to pull every single yid who spills his seed or looks at porn into the umbrella of Torah - not admitting that for some people (a minority) their problem is not Torah at all, but Derech Eretz. They give a kli zechuchis into the hands of a shoiteh and beg him not to break it. Then who is to blame for breaking it, but the shoiteh! Try harder! Don't give into your desires! Trust me and Hashem: your desires are all foolishness!

They are the nevi'im.

I am the one who points to the addiction and says to those (minority) here who are addicts: Look! Your Achashveirosh just took off the ring and gave it to your Haman! Write down your sexual acting out history in detail and share it openly and honestly with yourself. See for yourself if your life is in your hands. Not your bris - but your sanity and your life. This is not about your eiver tashmish! It's about your mochin and your entire guf bichlal - far more important than any one mitzvah.

It os destruction of your life. And as the halocha states, Sakanta chamira me'isura! This - Derech Eretz - must come before Torah, as Chaza"l say, Derech eretz Kodmah laTorah. Sanity comes first - before 'kedusha', 'Teshuvah', and whatever other great things the typical addicted yid is distracted by.

I am here not to demand anything, but just to beg the good people like MachshovaTova and Happyme0: please do not distract the addicts among those you are talking to, even further from what they really need to do!

If anyone here - as I am - is an addict, then I believe that you cannot afford to distract yourself from your sakonah by pretending to fix your issura. It does not typically work that way, for many reasons (that are beyond the scope of this post). If your life is truly out of control, you are taking taking risks, you are getting worse, and you see a cycle that is predictable....you may be an addict as I am.

An addict is a very sick person, and needs refu'ah. He (or she) is perhaps a ba'al tayvoh, too, and perhaps immature too, and many other things, too...but to focus on the morality, kedusha, or issurim first, is just playing a game with their lives and families.

Yes, every single nisayon overcome by any yid is precious! But the sweet heiligeh yid - who is also an addict - what gives anyone the right to encourage continued failure at the expense of the wife who is being lied to about her husband every day? Some of their husbands are spending hours staring at other naked people on videos, some are speaking with strange women on the phone or in chatrooms, some are having sex with koorvess....so? The poor yid who finally, finally sees that he is sick and crazy - the one who makes for him the comfortable and respectable excuse: "You are working on heichereh madreigos here, not just stam a drunk. What, you should put yourself now like a goy?!" This is poison. It is poisoning a man, a family, and dorei doros using inappropriately applied Torah. Just like the one who brings 'sforim hakedoshim' to convince him to stay away from the goyishe doctors who say he has cancer and needs chemo - this man will die, and on the way his family will go through hell.

Yes, only a minority of the men and women with lust problems on GYE are addicts. But that minority is significant. I have met them, and continue to meet them week after week. They are sick men who need to get well, not men who need noch a vort, noch a his'orerus Teshuvah. The one who tells them to just hang on and every nisayon is precious, even if you lose sometimes." is just perpetuating gehinom for this man, for his innocent wife, and for his innocent children.

Please keep sharing and telling vorts, his'orerus Teshuvah and chizzuk! There are so many on GYE who need exactly those things! But please do not forget that for some of the people here, that is poison. Some need a different derech.

People here often accuse me of saying either apikorsus or of saying that my derech is the only one for everybody and that "Torah doesn't work." That is a lie. I never said such a thing and do not believe it. Torah works for a lot of things, and all truth is from it - including the truth in math, baseball, modern psychology, art, physics, my heart, your mind, and everything else that ever was and will be. But Torah is not a screwdriver, will not give you money, refuah, and will not cure cancer R"l.

And as a recovering sex addict who has met many dozens of frum holy Jews with sex addiction who are now sober one day at a time for years - and many who clearly are not addicts even though they like pornography and sex, I have the right to share my experience here.

Sorry this is so long, and I still did not express it clearly.

Shkoyach. It was pretty clear.

nothing is helping, i cant find the inner will.. ive been in denial but i realize that when i look at p*** it leads me to masturbating.. but im trying to stop it. my access is the computer but i cant get rid of it. if i download the filter my parents will get suspicious.. and if they find out im dead. even without p*** i cant last more than 3 days. i hate it so much, i barely enjoy it now i have no clue what is making me keep doing it, but ill never give in, so far ive lasted a day gonna try to force my self to last another... 1hour at a time is my plan a whole day is to much for me

Get off the computer and go play ball, or find another hobby.
Try to make friends to hang out with.
Be cool. Don't stress out.did u find a safe friend to confide in?
Mottel.

titanlooks wrote on 27 Jun 2012 21:54:


That, my friend, is probably a bald-faced lie. And not true, either.