ATESHUVAH you are getting to know yourself better and you are obviously commited to get clean.How will you get away from the computer if you are going to college?
What is your plan of action to implement what you have learnt?

ATESHUVA1 wrote on 23 Aug 2011 20:28:


I think that although checking into the forum many times a day can certainly be a waste of time, as you said, it's kind of like too much of a good thing. But on the other hand, it can certainly be a good thing. One just has to impose limits on oneself to get the right balance, eg. Every sunday one hour before maariv is my one hour weekly dose of chizuk. I am afraid that in your case, there is a risk at this stage that you might dissapear for a while, be flying high with all this chizuk, but then then chas v'shalom but I have to say it, come crashing down with a fall, once the yetzer gets to work at chipping away all the chizuk. On the other hand, you could just get that chizuk from the emails, so there is that to consider. I would think that if you were able to discuss the decision of balance with a rov who knows you well, who would be able to assess the balance then that would be your best shot.
Also I too am interested to know, what does the forum say about ateshuva1's question.

Dear ATESHUVA1. You wrote:


The way you write here makes me think that you are talking about two distinct things. There is the porn and masturbation issue that people here are mainly referring to, and then there is some kind of thing you call "the animalistic lustings" that you describe as totally messing-up your judgement process.

I would like to be very sensitive here, but must be a bit blunt for the sake of clarity. So please clarify: Are you masturbating, following women, looking up porn, touching women, exposing yourself, or what? In other words: exactly what proof do you have that these desires "utterly take over my ability to stay within my logical process and make the proper decisions"? What exactly does that practically mean to you?

Is it all and only in your machshovoh? Or is it in your behavior: do you do something 'bad', or not? And exactly what is the end of this sentence of yours (it matters): 
, please? (emphasis is mine)

If you actually do 'bad' stuff, then I understand what you are writing above. But if it is strictly affecting your machshovoh and madreigah without physical manifestation in destructive behavior, then I ask you why you call that "utterly take over my ability to stay within my logical process and make the proper decisions."

Can you please clarify that?

And please also explain if there are two things here. Namely, the porn and masturbation that you seem to have left behind you, and the 'animalistic desires' you also refer to - or if they are exactly and totally the same thing.

I am not convinced you are an addict, at all. Please clarify these things and I hope you will have an easier time knowing in what direction your next step must be. 

I apologize for the convoluted speech. I was trying to "cleanly" express the problem (לעולם ישנה בלשון נקיה- עיין פסחים ג) in a way that would be understood by all but i guess in the process lost the clarity of my message.

To answer your question. Yes my machshovos lead to mayseh of moitzi zerah levatolah bemayzid. (Thats as graphic as i can get :-[)

In other words, you used to use porn a lot more than you do now, and you used to masturbate yourself a lot more than you do now. Though you have done some growing up recently and have a better mentality toward schmutz, it is still a problem for you at times.

Am I putting it right?

If so, why in the world do you think you are an addict at all? I do not get it. What you describe sounds pretty normal to me.

I am serious. Can you explain to me what the big deal is with your problem? Do you actually expect to be lifted above this? Orgasm makes you feel great inside. Does anything even come close to that kind pf pleasure for you, or not?

If there are other things that you can do that make you feel pleasure as intense, please list them here.

If the list is very short (or empty), I ask you: how do you expect to totally 'triumph' over your masturbation problem?

Saying "Oh, well, Hashem apparently does expect me to do so," is avoiding the question completely.

I hope you can do better than that. Please look over this post and answer all my questions rather than just the last one.

If you think I am a fruitcake, or insist on trying to figure out where I am going with all this and disqualifying these questions at the outset, that's your prerogative. But if you want to, please consider taking these steps if you really want to get somewhere different than where you are.

Hatzlocha, brother.

dov wrote on 28 Aug 2011 03:58:


The answer to this question can be found by looking at the progressive flow of this thread up until now. I came in with my original post thinking the same as you, that it was not an addiction and that I just have some sort of habituation with the desire to act out and just needed a positive plan to completely remove any remnant of that habituation. But as soon as I voiced my opinion on these things I was made to believe that my premise was mistaken and that the only way to improve was to call it an addiction to lust.

dov wrote on 28 Aug 2011 03:58:


Yes i honestly do think many other things in my life are much more pleasureful than an orgasm. As corny as this may sound, most things that I enjoy in ruchnius are just as pleasureful (if not more due to their nitzchius). Handling a svora in the gemora, being metareitz a teif kasha, hissoirurus at a tisch, a gevaldik davening... the list goes on..Now, i'll give you that these pleasures are not the same type of immense pleasure I could partake of in lets say eating a 50$ steak, (or the orgasm in this case) but these ruchnius pleasures have been able to keep me focused on my tachlis to the point that I rarely have the slightest craving for the gashmiusdik pleasure.

So why have I fallen into the yetzer harahs trap? I think its because he has the incredible koiach to convince me that an empty pleasure is not so empty and that pleasure is just pleasure so why not partake? He convinces me that i am not so great to be a poiraish maioilam hazeh and that the real me should just partake.

Is this me just saying "Oh, well, Hashem apparently does expect me to do so"? I dont think so, but maybe youll disagree.

I appreciate you asking these questions and I believe I have answered them honestly, and I hope that this might give clarity as to where i believe I am holding and how to fight off the yetzers "טענה"s from now until moshiach

dov, you mentioned the following:

dov wrote on 28 Aug 2011 03:58:


I would like to ask you, since this behavior definitely applies to myself. I also used to masturbate a lot more than I do now. I was at a stage where I never even thought anything of it, despite doing everything else that a frum jew would do. I have been trying since around September 2009, to stop doing it, and I have met varied success over the past 2 years, more so in this last year. Nevertheless, I have never had even close to a 90 day stretch in these 2 years of trying to work on it.

(If you want more info on my story here is my intro page: http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4308.0, and for more info on a particularly odd aspect to this problem of mine, here is a link to it: http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=4309.0)

My point is: If I haven't been able to stay clean, for these last 2 years, despite my desire to do so, isn't that precisely what we mean by "addict" I get that there can be different levels of addiction, but if I want to become clean, and yet simply have not done so, despite my full desire to be clean, then doesn't that make me an addict i.e someone who doesn't have control over my masturbation problem?




Also what do you mean by "Can you explain to me what the big deal is with your problem?" I assumed that the big deal with ATESHUVA1's problem, and my problem too, since they are similar in some ways, is that masturbation is an aveira, and still doing it every now and then is in fact a huge problem. I don't expect to be lifted above this desire, without actual chemical intervention, however, I do hope to one day be completely rid of this behavior, meaning it is so under control that I haven't ever done it again, and I won't ever do it again, despite not really finding anything that can match the pleasure that one gets from it.
I clearly am misunderstanding what you mean by the above, so if you could clarify, it would really help me.

Also I think that my definition of addict is supported by the discussion on the first page of this thread, http://www.guardyoureyes.org/forum/index.php?topic=634.0 The person in question over there (Eye.nonymous) too mentioned that he wouldn't even fall once a month, and yet since he couldn't fully break free, everyone involved, (guardureyes, 7up, bardichev, etc) all seemed to be in agreement that even such a mild case such as it could be defined as an addiction. But I encourage anyone to double check if I am not reading too much into it.

I think that on that same page, bardichev said it particularly best


It seems to me, but really grain of salt and all since as you can see I am very new around here, the tactic of the yetzer harah is to tell us that we are fine, and just ignore it, whatever, but sooner or later, once you let yourself believe that it is only a little problem, its under control, the yetzer hara strikes, and somehow one finds oneself knee deep in shmutz, even if only for a few minutes, but the damage is done, and the 90 day habit clock thingy gets reset, all the pathways get reestablished and this can sometimes, and unfortunately just become a cycle; 1) Its a problem 2) Ok, its under control, I am on a higher level now, there is nothing to worry about 3) Oh no! How on earth did that happen? I just fell. Oh well start again, step 1 etc

Now just to be clear, I don't mean c"v to be calling anyone an addict who isn't, and each and every person himself, exclusively reserves the right to define who they are, and no one, especially not me of all people, can do that. However I just want to get clarity, for myself at least, dov, on what you mean by saying
since as I have pointed out, I thought there was a fairly agreed upon idea of what an addict is,and it doesn't have to be someone who is totally at rock bottom, it can even be someone who falls only a few times a year, but a even few times a year clearly shows that the problem is not under control.

I hope I haven't offended anyone here, or misjudged them, and if I do I sincerely apologize, but I just want to get clarity on this whole, addict/not controversy around here.

OK, so I posted something about this (sort of) already yesterday. Yes, absolutely, if the issur of zera levatola is that upsetting to you or anyone else, I see no reason that being a person who is "wreaking the destruction of such a cheit" could, in fact, consider his life unmanageable as a result of that.

I read the entire sefer Yesod Yosef (as suggested in the Kitzur) in order to try and do that, though. It did not work for me. How much power to help does just, plain guilt have, for the man who cannot stop? Not much, I believe. I think it only has the power to destroy, for him.

So you may say that "not being able to stop" simply proves that he does not have enough guilt yet. That his cheit does not hurt him enough yet at a personal level.

Theoretically, I agree. But practically I do not. I think people typically do not work that way. If it is all guilt, then we eventually create mechanisms to lie to ourselves about how it is "a mitzvah somehow" (Guard and I have witnessed that actually occurring with at least one case), or shift the blame to someone else (like shiksas, prusteh women, the "Yetzer Hora", the mother-in-law, the wife, etc), BEFORE it reaches a 'critical mass' that would force us to stop....or we commit suicide.....or we do something suicidal, like ruin someone else's life by molestation, violence, or such. I have seen these occur before. But quit? I doubt it. Some people, maybe, but most? I do not think so.

Like Iyov, he lost his house, his cattle and sheep, his money, and even his children....and he was still intact. He could still rely on the faith he had always had to 'deal with it'.

But 'the Soton' knew what would really make the difference, and 'asked' Hashem to do it. And he was 'right': When the pain went to his own flesh (tzora'as mam'eress), Iyov cracked. His old faith was not enough. He could not cope unless he developed a new, different and deeper faith in G-d...but he was obviously not ready to, so he cracked, R"l, (k'fi madreigaso). Then his three good friends messed with him for a while, till Hashem gave him that extra faith (with a nevu'ah....kind of like 'cheating' ), and then he was apparently fine (even before Hashem 'replaced' his stuff and kids and all) and lived happily ever after.   

Same here....when the results of acting out our lust touch us in a personally devastating way, the truth comes out (like kiso kaaso or koso) that we are powerless and that our lives are unmanageable (by us, period). For some it takes loud demonstrations, and for some, it only takes quiet hints, like religious or mental/moral torture.

Oh, to be in that latter group! I certainly am not one of those. But better late than never, right?

Is that helpful, or not?