E.L. with his message is the shaliach for many here.

We are all big enough to pick and chose what works for us individualy. Nothing kefira is being said. I think Battleworn should post his opinions here, Dov on his thread and Baruch on his. No reason any of them need visit the emotionally triggering threads which push buttons.

Yes Guard; with all due respect, you too.

7Up in the wild west, are you crazy? I'll have me'self a big glass of Woodford on the rocks!

guardureyes wrote on 18 Aug 2009 14:13:


Now were getting somewhere!
Bardichev, time to get GUard drunk so he will chill out a bit.
Bardichev?
Woodford SOS!

Hic.

Reb Dov, I'm waiting. I would really like to know where I went wrong. Perhaps, at this oppertunity you can also answer this:

Please Reb Battelworn,

We wont get anywhere like this but the dumps.

So Lets just focus on your mehalech over here & Reb Dov on his thread & Sholom Al Yisroel.

Reb Dov I give you the right not to reply L'Maan Hasholom.

Please kids! Behave!

E.L.

Efshar you can tell me "sholom" between who and who?

Well sholom on the site.
I know that you are not fighting with Reb Dov but the ongoing debate that is making as much progress as the Middle East Peace Process just makes some people on GYE uncomfortable as in not that peacful/Sholom.

E.L.

O"K No problem. You should know that when I set up the "crux of the issue" thread I really thought it would bring to increased understanding and Achdus. Oh Well, kol mah di'ovad rachmonoh, letav ovad.

I realized that & commemorate you for that.

Its not what you or anyone was saying, its just the ongoing, never ending debate that creates this Uneasiness that is not necessary or accomplishing anything or much.

Its like 2 chassidim or a chossid & litvak arguing with all the love in the world for on another about who's derech is the right one.

At the end of the day all we get it 2 guys with hoarse voices oisgemitshit and everyone holding strong to their belief which is fine.

Just a waste of time & energy.

E.L.

I dont think anyone here who knows anything about the main players, can question for a second that there is mutual respect and admiration for each other.
But Efshar is correct. This has come up over and over, and no one but the yetzer is really enjoying.
Cant everyone express themselves just the way they do, but separately?

Eilu v'eilu divrei Elokim chaim.

With all the respect in the world to each and every one,
7up

Dear 7up, Efshar Letakein, and anyone else w/o anything else to do right now:

You may be right that no one but the YH is really enjoying machlokes here. And I agree w/Battleworn when he he says that my experience is just plain different than the approach that many take here on GYE. But I have come to see that that's a good thing for all parties. I have a lot to learn.
What moved me to first post on GYE was that I felt I had to let people know that if they are not suceeding in quitting, they may need to switch from just trying to get more dedicated to Torah/inspired, or using tricks (even from Torah sources) and start to learn how to just look inside themselves. I use the steps to look inside and see the truth about myself, not to learn or understand what G-d says I should do. That is what the Torah is for and Chazal say "Derech Eretz Kodmah Latorah", and I see it exactly as that in my own life. [For those into it, see s'forim on Yesod/Malchus - Derech/Eretz - as s'michas geulah (kodem) l'tefillah, but I digress! ;)]  The ultimate teacher for me was my acting out itself (perhaps like Haman's ring!). This is why AA (the book) struck such a chord with me and still does. I learned this "in the crucible of my own experience" and from watching, sponsoring, and sharing with many other addicts over the years. Not by sitting in the Beis Hamedrash. I had tried that already. For many folks, sitting in the beis Hamedrash may nonetheless be exactly the eitza, though!! Just look and see that you are doing that the way you really need to rather than c"v watering a weed (Gr"a).
Now, I sit and learn in Beis Medrash and have a blast (even w/o Woodford!)

I no longer feel a need to use the Torah to "explain" or "define" my recovery, just as I feel no need to explain or figure out my acting-out al-pi Torah, l'havdil al-pi psychology, or al-pi any other way! And that's quite a change for me, for in my acting out years that was my main occupation (besides acting out!): to finally understand this stuff and how my YH was working and then "beat it" with that knowledge! Sadly, it got me nowhere - except to make me much sicker and to deeply infect my avodas Hashem w/an addict's twisted perspective on everything I learned and did. Notwithstanding, mind you, I did not become one of those guys who thinks Torah/yiddishkeit is useless, thank G-d. On the contrary, it (addiction and recovery) is growing my avodah and I use my illness and sobriety as the opening through which I come to avodas Hashem. The first 2-3 years were difficult, though. But for precious things, it's worth the struggle. Same with marriage - sobriety does not mean sholom bayis right away!
I try to remember to approach Hashem as an addicted Yid. I am a sick person who needs Him desperately, no matter how many decades of sobriety I may have. I open my eyes to focus on Hashem's proven love and power for me, not on my mistakes or on the illness itself - I just use the recognition of the extent of my frailty as the proof to myself that I'm dependent on Him! My tendency for years of acting out was to forget Hashem as the source of my life, and will not go back there today. When Hashem says we'll forget Him ("veromm levovecha...veshochachtoh..." in devorim) He is talking to frum people - with problems. I was frum - and acting out - but I have learned in recovery that I can only act out if I forget Hashem. This is important:
I do not view living within this framework as "living in Mitzrayim". I believe I use my past as Dovid hamelech does when he says "anochi tola'as velo ish," and "meroshi ve'ad ragli ein bee mesom", and as Hashem does when He says (50 times in His Torah) "vezochartah ki eved hayeesa b'eretz mitzrayim...and I took you out!" he wants me to remember that, to never forget the avdus. Apparently he knows people tend to leave Hashem out once they have enough evidence that they've got the power. And my heart tells me that I'd do just that (and act out - and eventually die) if I didn't treat myself as an addict any more (by "addict" I mean "having the real tendency to get nutty over lust and act out just as in my past - and worse"). And since then, I have not personally met anyone who got better by putting Torah (figuring it all out) before the derech eretz (accepting the truth about themselves), either. So, when I found something that got me somewhere (SA), and the somewhere turned out to be pretty good (real life), I was very happy (and still am). See: !
As far as successes in the GYE chevra is concerned, (since Battleworn asked) I just believe/figure/guess that those who get better here are either
1- doing it via a completely different path than I was given, or that
2- they have undergone a quiet process of admitting their true state already and were using GYE and its fantastic chevra-schaft to stay in the game and learn a better way to live w/o their drug, or
3- some may actually have a YH problem and are using the many great tools given on GYE to stay afloat and avoid the destruction of lust and addiction, or
4- I just have no idea and it isn't any of my business, anyway! 
BH for each and every one of us! 

As Efshar Letakein implies, the main point of anything posted needs to be to help peoples' recovery. I believe our failure also helps people recover, because it helps folks learn that no one is perfect and to see that in recovery we get right up and move on after falling, too. So there is no shame here, and that is tremendous! There are lots and lots of beautiful, innocent, hurting folks out there who watch and read but do not (and may never) post here. They may be turned off by machlokes. Surely some will be. So I had long conversations w/Battleworn via PM about his concerns with my approach. I poured my heart out. It became plain to me that we simply see things with different glasses.
I see all the points he listed as ikarim of his approach to recovery (we are winners, focus on the Neshoma, etc. - see his response to Guard) as only p'ratim in the klal that starts and centers upon admitting the truth about myself. I was a progressive failure at controlling-and-enjoying Lust. Period. It will eventually kill me if I try to use it, so I accept that I'm powerless over it. I have an allergy to lust because using it (at all) changes my whole perspective on things. It is natural for me to be self-centered and - in lust - this is magnified ridiculously, for one thing. And it came down to living Hashem's way and living, or mine and getting worse (and maybe dying), there were no longer any peshora's. They ran out for me. So I decided to give up struggling with lust (which was - and still is - a slow learning process) and my life is now totally different. I can't argue about this, it's the way I live. If you like it, try it.
When I said the 12 steps are bidi'eved I meant exactly that - but being an addict is bidi'eved, and I needed to accept that. If you can control yourself, then gezunterheit! It may be bidi'eved to leave the Beis Hamedrash, at all! But if I'm an addict, I'm seriously ill. And the first thing an ill person needs to do is admit his illness to himself!Certainly it is exactly what Hashem wants of that sick person, so what kind of bidi'eved are we really talking about here? A nice one, I think!
I really hope this was helpful to some reeeeeal tzaddik who can get through it! :D
May we all find what works for us!! No arguing is needed about what we try if it works. Let's all drink to that, OK?
Love,
Dov

Wow! Reb Dov,

I might have had nothing better to do, but I didn't have this much of nothing better to do. That was one long Megila.
but I got through it anyway.
Point well made.
E.L.

Reb Dov, thank you very much for that post! I don't think anyone can recover without admitting their true state. And I fully 100% agree that remembering that you were in your own personal Mitzraim and Hashem took you out, is crucial (I mean that literally as in mi'akev) to staying sober.

Even to Avraham Avinu Hashem says "I am the G-d who took you out of Ur Kasdim". Why does He always bring these things up? The answer is, that Hashem's connection with us is contingent on our feeling a "need" for him. This is clear in many places in the Torah and in Chazal. That is why Hashem mentions Yetzias Mitzrayim no less than 50 times in the Torah. It is this "darkness" that we were in and that he took us out from - both on a national level as well as on a personal level - that gives us the eternal connection to him.

Most of us are still in our personal mitzrayim's (even those who broke free from lust; think "ratzon likabel"). And without Hashem taking us out of it and giving us "keilim of Hashpa'ah" (which is limalah min hateva), we are lost. The ba'al Hasulam goes as far to say that a yid who wasn't given yet a matana by Hashem of keilim of Hashpa'ah - hasn't even reached the level of nefesh di'nefesh and has no kesher with ruchniyus! We need Hashem desperately to take us out of Mitzrayim. But we don't feel it enough. Happy is the Yiddele that always remembers his personal Mitzrayim! His connection to Hashem is one of true d'veikus!

P.S. Thank you Battleworn for bringing out these pearls from Dov. Yishakeini mineshikos pihu!