battleworn wrote on 03 Jul 2009 09:18:

Yes, I meant the first thing: as of this moment/today, what is your personal goal for recovery. ("to be/be able to...", "to have...", whatever)
Esteemed folks: We all wax very thoughtful in this venue, myself not the least, so here is a request: Please, please, if you elect to answer this question at all, please consider expressing your own, personal goal in "recovery" (or whatever you choose to call it) and notnecessarily what your shittah about the purpose or definition of recovery is.
For example: I believe we all agree that the "big picture/groiseh plahn" for our (or any) recovery is to do the mitzvah of teshuva, live close with Hashem, become true ovdei Hashem, and do our part to bring moshiach. BUT personally - just for me - I find that taking a "back seat" to what Hashem is using my recovery to accomplish in the velt is essential to my recovery itself. Actually, I feel it is is my "mitzvah" to remain in the trunk or glove compartment...don't worry, friends, there is plenty air back here... Hey! :o a "bike" doesn't have a glove compartment!! ;D
My approach to my own recovery is like the my perception of the Nodah Biyehuda's approach to mitzvos with respect to the issue of "leshem yichud's" - "what is it your business what Hashem does with the mitzvah? Better to focus on simply and honestly doing His Will with your whole heart and He'll get the right job done."
I believe his approach is that getting "involved" in the mechanics, definitions, and outcomes will lead to the very mistaken idea that I'm a baaylim, guiding it, and directing the process in some way, which - in mitzvos - could be very bad (besides just plain silly)...(they are "eivorim deMalka", not mine!)
In recovery, being that I came from a place of believing that I must control and manipulate everything and everybody to get what I felt I needed while actually being totally out of control of others, of my life, and eventually even of my self, I now find it quite natural to remain that way - out of control - of my recovery outcomes. (as a sponsor, this includes other people's recovery: I can't instruct and direct them, can't fix them, and I am really just a shaliach of Hashem, who has plenty other shluchinm to use, and I can only share)  I need to leave it all in Hashem's "hands". If He considers what I am doing in recovery "teshuvah", so be it. Wonderful, but none of my business.
I do not take that approach in mitzvos, possibly in line w/the retort of the Be'er Mayim Chayim (and say lots of l'sheim yichuds) interestingly. (Actually it may only be interesting to me and is likely quite boring to anyone else! ;D) So I wouldn't honestly say my goal is "to do teshuvah" per se, and I am not comfortable considering my "victory over Lust" a tikkun of midas yesod, sexuality, or any source of kedusha/zechus at all for me.
Rather I use the program (the steps) to remain sane so I can stay clean and be useful to "elokim va'anashim" (as re:shmuel hanavi), living whatever Hashem's will for me is, completely undistracted by lust.
Obviously, many here take a very different tack and they approach their own personal recovery as flowing directly out of and motivated by the mitzvah of teshuvah and their avoidance of (what I call) "distraction by lust" is truly milchemes hayetzer". It therefore defines a major part of of their actual, direct avodas Hashem, as opposed to it being a "heichi timtza/catalyst".
My point here is "how does it actually work for you?". I am not in the business of judging, I just think it is important to recognize and leave room for everybody, and avoid any arguing along the way. You'll hear my bike squeeking...got some oil?
Sorry for the wordiness,  :.



What is that reply?

PS. I'll be on complete vacation from any computers for a week in the mountains, so have a great next week w/o my droning long posts!  :-*

TZEISCHEM LISHALOM

READ COUNTRY YIKESS

GIVE US YOUR INPUT
b

Reb Dov, it may be that it this point our goals in sobriety are more diverse than our approaches to dealing with the addiction. Lemaaseh, I need some time to think about how to continue. In the meantime I'll PM you the reply that I want your feedback on.

Shomaim News - Headlines.

Heaven & Earth are waiting to see if Battelworn will continue & finish the long awaited "Torah Aproach" even after having a little set back by some other Gedoilem on GYE that might disargree with some minor (even thou I know you see them as major) details that can be worked out. The Malochim are hoping that it can be worked out diplomaticly as Eilu V'Eilu Divrei Elokim Chaim.

E.L.

I agree. I think the Torah approach is AMAZINGLY powerful and well written, and I made it "sticky" so that everyone who comes to the forum will check it out FIRST.

Battleworn's wisdom is truly inspiring, and he is helping so many Yidden and saving them from sin with his invaluable chizuk.

May each yid find Hashem by following his Neshama. When we let our Neshamos shine, they are drawn to emes by default! (as Battleworn always says)

Chazal say that in the world to come, Hashem will make a Machol (circle) for the tzadikim. Each one will point to the middle and say "zeh Hashem kivinu lo". Why a circle? Because each Tzadik in the circle is pointing in a slightly different direction than the one next to him. And the Tzadikim on opposite sides of the circle are pointing in seemingly opposite directions!! Yet they are all pointing to Hashem.

Guys, I want you to know that I understand Dov's derech very well and I have a heck of a lot of respect for him. I had a very long private conversation with him over a couple of weeks. Although we didn't reach a lot of maskonos, we did get to know each other very well. I see his derech the same way as he does - as a last resort for someone who is so sick that he's not ready to listen. I was taught to have a lot of faith in a yiddishe neshomoh and that is really the point where we don't see eye to eye.

But all that is not the issue. The issue is that the success of this holy forum which is growing from day to day, is based on certain attitudes many of which are outlined in the GYE Attitude. These include: BEIEVING IN YOUR SELF, THE CHASHIVUS OF OUR SHLICHUS TO BE MIGALEH THE SHECHINA IN THE DARK OF THE DARK, THE GADLUS OF EVERY BIT OF EFFORT, THE GREAT NACHAS RU'ACH THAT WE MAKE BY HOLDING BACK EVEN IF WE FALL IN THE END, IGNORING THE FALLS AND BUILDING ON OUR SUCCESSES, SIMCHA SHEL MITZVAH IN THE FIGHT, RECOGNIZING THAT THE BAAL TAIVOH IS NOT THE REAL ME-THE REAL ME WANTS ONLY TO DO RATZON HASHEM, ETC.

Reb Dov agrees that all these things are true, but in order to do his mehalech you need to look AWAY from these truths instead of looking towards them. If you think I'm wrong, I beg you to first ask Dov before you reply.

It makes no sense at all that I or anyone else should continue working our hardest to get these messages through to people in every way possible (including poetry, songs, meshalem, divrei Torah etc.) only to have one of the best writers and most knowledgable people of the forum come and  contradict the whole message. This has nothing to do with philosophical debate. It just makes no sense from a practical point of view.

Battleworn's version:

BEIEVING IN YOUR SELF

The 12-Step version:

- powerless does not mean helpless.
- powerless is never an excuse to continue
- we are responsible for our recovery
- we cannot think our way out, we need to act our way into a new pattern of thinking.
- Determination is completely up to you.

Battleworn's version:

THE CHASHIVUS OF OUR SHLICHUS TO BE MIGALEH THE SHECHINA IN THE DARK OF THE DARK

The 12-Step version:

We found G-d where we never thought to look.

Battleworn's version:

THE GADLUS OF EVERY BIT OF EFFORT

The 12-Step version:

Even when a new behavior seems insignificant, acting AS IF we truly believe in the importance of what we are doing. This leads to real changes in thinking and behavior. When a test comes, we acknowledge our feelings, but choose not to pursue them.

Battleworn's version:

THE GREAT NACHAS RU'ACH THAT WE MAKE BY HOLDING BACK EVEN IF WE FALL IN THE END

The 12-Step version:

Each time you choose not to follow old addictive pattern, you are turning over your life to the care of G-d.

Battleworn's version:

IGNORING THE FALLS AND BUILDING ON OUR SUCCESSES

The 12-Step version:

Any new skill requires practice. Recovery is no different.

Battleworn's version:

SIMCHA SHEL MITZVAH IN THE FIGHT

The 12-Step version:

Recovery teaches us how to flow with life, not fight against it.

Battleworn's version:

RECOGNIZING THAT THE BAAL TAIVOH IS NOT THE REAL ME-THE REAL ME WANTS ONLY TO DO RATZON HASHEM

The 12-Step version:

-Realizing we were acting insane. It’s not sane to repeat self-destructive behaviors.

- Recognizing how insidious the addiction is, how it continues to tell us lies, getting us to continue to act out again and again.

- Acting out will never be the same, once you know you CAN recover.

Are they really SO different?? Yes, the 12-steps don't contain the aspects of "Simcha shel Mitzva", since they treat the steps a tool to heal from a sickness, - so we aren't looking to get schar here really. But that still doesn't conflict! Yes, it's great that we yidden can get schar too for getting better!! And of -course it helps to know what a Nachas Ruach Hashem has from our struggle, but that doesn't conflict - it only HELPS.

I don't know what discussions you had with Boruch, but as I said before: GYE views the 12-Steps as an important set of tools and principles to help us make our Emunah, Bitachon and "living with Hashem" more real, and how to get out of "self-centered" thinking. Period. (And this in turn, can not only help us break free of the addiction, but it can take our Yiddishkeit to a new - and much more "real" level as well).

I was talking about Dov's posts. I apologize for not being clear. Please forgive me.

Dov does not disagree with anything I wrote above, and if you understood his posts as disagreeing, you probably missunderstood what he was saying. Dov does not have his own version of the 12-Steps. There is only one version.

Please Battleworn, in GYE our derech is to look for diamonds EVEN in a pile of rubish, rather than looking for a piece of rubish in a pile full of diamonds.

Again I apologize for not being clear. I wasn't talking about his beliefs, I was talking about his POSTS.

It makes no sense at all that I or anyone else should continue working our hardest to get these messages through to people in every way possible (including poetry, songs, meshalem, divrei Torah etc.) only to have one of the best writers and most knowledgable people of the forum come and  contradict the whole message. This has nothing to do with philosophical debate. It just makes no sense from a practical point of view.  

You are being FAR to vague when writing that "one of the best writers and most knowledgable people of the forum come and contradict the whole message". Obviously you mean Dov. But no one has any CLUE about what you see in his posts that "contradict the whole message".

You could ask him. Show him the list that I wrote above and ask him what his message about these attitudes, is. I made a mistake when I wrote "Baruch" in the begining, I meant to say Dov and I was reffering to him and only to him the whole time.

This disscusion was started by this:

Have no time to reply right now, but will be"H this afternoon. In the meantime - just for the record - I do not agree with most of what R' Battleworn stated above regarding my approach toward recovery. My experience and the understanding of it has been colored by my life, which includes Torah, my Neshomah, and my experiences - including lots of acting out and sufferring as an addict. Just as anyone else here. I never intend to set myself up as an authority on the 12 steps nor on the Torah approach. If people trust what I say as "truth" rather than seeing it as simply another man's experience that my help them in their struggle, too, that is not my fault. This is why I have not gotten involved directly in the GYE policies, approach, or anything. I ahven't even read most of that material, cuz for me it's poison, even though I believe it's great for most folks, I'm afraid it'd lead me to "understand too much".  It seems that sharing my experience and letting the chips fall where they may is the only approach I can safely take, lest I get all knotted up and crazy. I truly envy anyone who is able to remain sober while getting all involved with philosphy and shittos. My way is action and experience and it'll stay that way w/Hashem's daily help, as long as He wants it to be so. I can't handle anything more right now. My gut tells me so (and the collective experience of many AAs tells me to trust my gut on this). Love,
Dov

Reb Dov,

We hear you, Loud & Clear!

How about we just accept that Reb Battleworn & Reb Dov have different Shitas & should stay strong to their approaches on their own thread this way we can avoid any harsh feelings that might come out even in a Machlokes L'Shem Shomaim?

If we can see anything productive coming out at the end of the day then lets go at it.

But if we cant, then it just makes more sense to each of us to go Down/Up the road that will get us closer to Hashem.

Can we do that? Please?

E.L.