Great, if Dov is on board I feel already confident. As is known, even the great Chassid masters had their own Rebbe who they traveled to, not that I am a Rebbe or anything, but some people consider me "rabbeinu Guard". But I consider Dov my Rebbe.

I need to make something clear befor we begin. Battleworn wrote in his original post:

The Torah approach is (5) to make use of any tool that can be effective.

And he (told me that he) had in mind the 12-Steps. But I think that the Torah approach we develop should not just use the 12-Steps as a TOOL, but rather should use the underlying message of the 12-Steps as one of the main yesodos for the entire program. What do I mean? Although the yesodos that Battleworn mentioned in a-z are very important to know, they focus a lot on the "struggle" and how precious it is, and how that's our "mission" and how much Nachas Ruach Hashem has from the struggle, etc... However, as I have joined Duvid Chaim's phone group for the last few days and started learning a little bit more about how the 12-Steps work, I am learning the Yesod that makes them so powerful is that we learn to ignore the struggle with the addiction, and instead we focus on how to be always "same'ach bechelko", always feel Hashem's chesed to us every second, we learn "acceptance" of everything that happens to us as EXACTLY what was supposed to happen now, we learn to let go of "being in control" of life and seeing Hashem as the one who controls everything that happens, etc... and through this, all the stress, anxiety and ego fall away, and we learn how to be content in life and live with an awareness of Hashem to the point where we don't need to reach for our drug anymore ... I think Battleworn may have meant this in the last part of his beautiful first post where he talks about developing an intimate relationship with Hashem... The reason the 12-Steps work for addicts, is because the focus is not on the "struggle", but rather on what is causing us to seek these things in the first place. When we are content and truly sameach bechelko, the yetzer Hara has no where to grab onto. The whole Koach of the yetzer Hara is built out of "LACK". As the Zohar says "hav Hav"... give, give... "I need", "I don't have what I need"... etc... (as we brought in the past few Shmiras Ainayim Chizuk e-mails from the book by Rebbetzin Heller called "Battle Plans", that she brings this Yesod from the Maharal).

"The struggle with the YH" is for normal people - and it truly gives Hashem a great Nachas Ruach. But for "addicts", something is WRONG with our struggle. Something is making the struggle TOO POWERFUL. We are NEEDING these things WAY TOO MUCH. There's an engine mal-function somewhere deep down that needs to be fixed. Hashem wants us to fix that first. When we fix that, THEN he has Nachas Ruach, but not if we keep struggling with a grossly damaged engine. (Here's a Moshol I just thought of, which is probably way off base, but maybe it makes a little sense.... If you saw your child trying to balance themselves on a ball, and the child was struggling to succeed, you would cheer him on and tell him he's doing great! But what if the ball was out of air and kept flopping every time the kid tried to stand on it. Would you cheer him on and tell him to try harder and harder? No, you'd tell him: "before trying to balance on the ball, fill it up with air!")

I think this is a profound way of looking at it... Please don't take it as a disagreement, rather as a whole new perspective, a different focus in our mission (the mission of addicts) in this world. We need to focus our mission on complete Emunah and Bitachon and living with hashem (d'veikus), as opposed to a mission of fighting the yetzer Hara. Both are truly emes, and both are d'var Hashem, but for addicts, it seems the second approach has proven itself with millions of people, that that is what work best.

So what does everyone say? Although all the things Battleworn posted are extremely valuable as well, I think a large part of our "Torah approach" should ALSO focus around this attitude of learning to be "content" and not have to reach for the "drug". And we do this through learning true Emunah and Bitachon. Ba Chavakuk, ve'hemidan al achas: "Tzadik Be'emunaso Yichyeh"

I Don't really drink, But, reading the latest posts over here deserves a L'Chaim.

So let me find bardichev and see if he has a shot of woodford left in his bottle for me.

like we say "Light only comes after the Dark!"

so I hope the dark days are over  and "Let There BE Light!"

Efshar Letaken

Rabbeinu, it's great that you brought this up. When a person has real Emunah there's no place for any of the negative emotions that lead to acting out. There's also no place for the y"h.

This was probably the main factor in the very dramatic effect that R' Tzadok Hacohen's seforim had on my life. It was definitely the main factor in the dramatic effect that R' Tzvi Meir had on my life. This is what I was referring to when I said that each time I fell I bounced back up as a bigger and better person than before.

This is what it means to develop an intimate relationship with Hashem; to live with Hashem all the time. As R' Tzvi Meir always says: We always need to remember two things שהכל נהיה בדברו and שעשה לי כל צרכי  Everything is from Hashem and everything is exactly what I need. I could go on and on non-stop about this. Actually before the whole tumult started I was planning on doing a big discussion on Emunah. Also I had started working on a book called Emunah and Kedusha.

I just want to point out two things.

1) The difference between an addict and a non-addict is that (in general) the addiction causes much more stress than anything else. That's why it's so important to work on getting rid of that stress specifically (that's why we all agree how crucial it is to brake the cycle), while at the same time working on Emunah in general. Having the right perspective on milchemes hayetzer does wonders for that. [That's an understatement]

2) Being that acquiring Emunah is a lifetime project with constant ups and downs, we also need practical tools for avoiding trouble. Those are the tools that I was reffering to.

Even though I'm obviously no rebbe, everything else in Guard's post sits well with me.
The single most powerful emuna/bitochon tool in my life came through sobriety. Especially early on. Learning moved me a great deal but I was not able to put it into practice, particularly when lust was involved. But... Actually experiencing Hashem helping little me stay sober in the moment, did the trick. Then slowly, the Torah I had learned began to blossom and still is. At first this was distressing: "why couldn't I learn these things and really believe them like everyone else I know (I guess) does?!" As Guard wrote, I may have known it, but I was not able to live by it! But after really finding I was successfully using Hashem's help every day, it dawned on me: "who cares what event brought it into us? What matters is that we definitely get what the tzaddikim were trying to teach us about. If we can be instrumental in helping yidden (and ourselves) actually internalize and grow in an emunah/bitochon that works, it would be absolutely BOMBASTIC.

I agree 100% that we need both. But the biggest and most powerful - overall approach is exactly what Rav Tzvi Meyter said, that everything is from Hashem and I have exactly what I need...




Please consider if it is really the addiction that causes the stress, or is it perhaps our stress that is causing the addiction? By stress I mean feelings like "I" have to make sure that "I" am in control of my external environment, instead of focusing on my internal environment and leaving the external environment completely for Hashem to take care of... Because when we do that, there is no stress and then the obsessions of the addictions disappear magically as well!




Agreed!

As Rav Noach taught us, if it is for klal yisroel how could one say no.  I accept the invitation and am pleased to work alongside such great tzadikim. 

Its both and that's the vicious cycle of addiction. Furthermore, as Dov expained so well:




Zedonos na'asim zichuyos, Hahem gave this to us as a tool for growth because this is precisely the tool that we need. By coming to realize this, along with all the other yesodos, we are able to grow from it as we were meant to. As I said before, in practice we need to work on both at the same time. I believe everyone agrees on this (someone please correct me if I'm wrong).

As for me, I like Dov's idea, but I need a little clarification. My main question is what do you mean "today" ? Does it mean as of today what is your goal (for life)? Or what is your goal for today?

Also to me, my goal in staying clean is synonomous with my goal in life in general. And one more point. I need to warn you that R' Tvi Meir taught me to set very high goals. When we have Emunah and Bitachon there's no danger of being dissapointed, so the higher the goals the better. [Also when you have Emunah nothing is unrealistic]

P.S. Chevra please give me feedback to reply #27. [Here or privately]

I don't know if you mean me, but if yes, I answered you in the first sentence of reply #28 and also by phone 

I am certainly not an expert here, but setting high goals while still entrenched in the addiction does not seem like the most practical method of approaching sobriety.  What little I have learned in SA so far is that it is our very insistence on perfection, our lofty goals and our feelings of inadequacy for not being able to live up to our own high standards that drives us right back to our addictive behavior.  Perhaps setting high goals may be beneficial once we feel more comfortable with our sobriety, but I am just scared that setting high expectations from the beginning may lead to dissapointment for the newly recovering, an emotion that drives us right back where we came from.

Your thoughts everyone?

just saw a pshat that relates to this, in the name of Metzudas Dovid  that the  the Kotsker said on this pshat it was worth that the  entire commentary on the whole Tnach just for this  commentary!!!


דאגה בלב-איש ישחנה ודבר טוב ישמחנה - משלי פרק יב
If a person has worry in his heart , he should lower the level (or degree) of the  the worry a few notches, meaning try to see why its not really such a BIG worry, why its not as bad as he thinks etc. (I know easier said then done )
ודבר טוב ישמחנה
BUT and even better approach is to actually rejoice in the worry! to find that if Hashem gave him this "worry" there is really cause to rejoice in it

(this is a lifetime of work maybe ;)or fast track it by going thru the steps)

Shomer, it's so good to hear from you! How are things going? I believe that all the people posting on this thread are in full agreement with you about this problem. What I was saying was that if you have your Emunah and Bitachon straight enough, it solves this problem completely.

Let me try to prove it to you: It's well known that there were many Gedolei Yisroel that held themselves to be from the low people of Klal Yisroel. Just as an ex. R' Tzvi Meir himself invests energy in Avodas Hashem in a way that's very difficult to imagine. His goals are also totally beyond our imagination. About ten years ago he said that he is the lowest person in all of Klal Yisroel. More recently I heard from him that every day he falls much lower and lower. Why do people like that not feel inadequate and get frustrated and depressed?

The answer is that all these negative emotions are based in דמיונות -delusions. If you have clear Emunah and Bitachon and understand that your life is totally in the hands of Hashem, and every second is given to you as a precious gift from Hashem for the sole purpose of fulfilling Ratzon Hashem in that second; if you understand that your whole essence is your "shlichus" of Hashem, then you can not possibly feel inadequate or get depressed or frustrated.  

The idea is is to set very high goals and NO expectations! {I'm just trying to give you the general idea, but really it's a whole discussion in itself}

Besides all this, I understood that Dov was talking to people that have been sober for quite a while.

He wrote "today"

I don't understand what you're saying. (I posted earlier that I don't know what he means by "today" and I mentioned 2 possibilities. Did he really mean a third thing?) Could you please explain?

Since I consider Dov my Rebbe on this forum, I need to be me'dayek in his Lashon  :D

I notice a pattern with Dov's mehalech. He is constantly stressing taking it slow and "real". I notice this mehalech five times in his Lashon:
1) "what our personal goal in sobriety/staying clean really is, for ourselves" - not for anyone else (i.e. what I "feel now", and not what I think I or others should feel)
2) "what our personal goal in sobriety/staying clean really is, for ourselves today" - right now, and not for life (this is again the idea of "real")
3) "and make that clear in writing, for ourselves"
4) "May Hashem help us remain clean today" - tomorrow is not noge'ah to me now
5) "and be close supports to each other first (and then to the rest of the needy of klal yisroel.)"

This is also what Shomer was saying I think.

Battleworn, I would like to know if you agree with one thing. As Boruch said many times, it is FORTUNATE that Klal Yisrael B"H does NOT have much experience with addictions. For that reason, we need to go to those who DO have experience with addictions. Millions of non-Jews, who were able to regain their sanity through the 12-Steps. Now, the way I see the purpose of this project we are doing now, is to take the experience of these millions of goyim and find the very SAME yesodos in the Torah, and show Yidden that we have the same wisdom (and even much more) in our own backyard, and we can take this wisdom and grow with it ultimately much higher than the goyim could through the 12-Steps ("ultimately" but not at first. That's a distinction that needs to be ironed out still). However, I don't see us succeeding nearly as well, if the goal is to completely build a NEW mehalech based on the Torah and Yiddishkeit. Not because the wisdom isn't in the Torah, but because we are not availing ourselves of the experience of millions of people who already found a path that works. If we take their path and bring it close to Kedusha, we are on to something BIG. Like Boruch started to post.

בשלשה דברים האדם חוזר:

א) ביטול
ב) בטחון
ג)  תיקון

Which (I suppose) correspond to the three yesodos of the 12-Steps that Boruch posted in Chizuk e-mail #470 (I'm not sure how exactly, but we can work on it)

1) Trusting G-d
2) Cleaning House
3) Helping others

Do you agree with me on this?