Yes Rabeinu, I saw Boruch's reply and it's very encouraging. Hashem should direct us in the right way and save us for all the different forms of ma'aseh soton.

                            יהי ד' אלוקינו עמנו כאשר היה עם אבותינו אל יעזבינו ואל יטשינו

battleworn wrote on 01 Jul 2009 14:24:


Has anyone seen the hakdomo of the Remo to Darkei Moshe on the Tur?

The Remo writes how he was in the process of preparing a peirush on the Tur when Rav Yosef Karo published the Beis Yosef on the Tur and he describes how he was very demoralized because of the thoroughness and depth of the peirush of the Beis Yosef.

The Remo describes how he davened to Hashem, that he too should get a chelek in the brocho (using the words of Eisov!!!). Then the Remo writes that Hashem showed him three reasons for his own peirush on the Tur, that we know today as the Darkei Moshe Ho'oruch (the Darkei Moshe Hakotzer was not shortened by the Remo himself, it was a publisher's invention, wherever an early publisher thought that the Darkei Moshe Ho'oruch overlapped with the Beis Yosef he excluded it for convenience, often taking out too much)

One of the three reasons the Remo gives for writing his peirush is mind-boggling. The Remo writes that the Beis Yosef abandoned the practice of the Rambam to always write concisely and to the point. He says that as a result the Beis Yosef is far too long and tedious for he, the Remo, to be able to use it!!! He writes that he is creating a simpler and shorter peirush for people like himself who cannot use the Beis Yosef because it is too long!!!

So, I have in mind a simple program of multiple steps that can be summarized by,

בשלשה דברים האדוק חוזר:

א) ביטול
ב) בטחון
ג)  תיקון

Those are the כללי העבודה, the general rules.

והפרטים יבואו
בעזרת השם יתברך

Hi Boruch, remember writing this to me once?

In my opinion, due to the existential threat the internet poses, a Charedi SA-type group such as DERECH YESHORO (HA = hirhurei aveiro)  could be the most successful of all 12 Steps in the Charedi World

In addition DERECH YESHORO (TI = taavas internet), DERECH YESHORO (TA = taavas achila), DERECH YESHORO (TM= taavas momon), DERECH YESHORO (TKo=Taavas kovod), DERECH YESHORO (TKi=Taavas kino), DERECH YESHORO (TI= taavas ishun), DERECH YESHORO (TS= taavas samim=drugs) would be additional possibilities.

All of these would be run very similarly to AA/SA etc. entirely based on the Aleph Beis of living with Hashem, as apparent even to drunk atheists, groups that would follow the AA Traditions and Concepts, inside funding, self-supporting, no political alignment etc. Like AA they would have online presences, conference bridges and face-to-face meetings.

Literature would be entirely written by Frum Yidden, with haskomos issued separately, as we already discussed. etc. etc.

But before we re-invent the wheel, let us find out what has worked, what we can learn and gain from SA and then we could decide after we know as much as we need to whether to get SA affiliation and/or the create Derech Yeshoro groups.

guardureyes wrote on 01 Jul 2009 17:48:


Well, right now I am active in three fellowships, SA, OA (Overeater's Anonymous, I am back at the amount I weighed when I got married, 20 years ago, which is 71 lbs less than my all-time high weight of 1 1/2 years ago), DA (Debtor's Anonymous, for the first time in my life I am living with a budget). I think that there are many frum yidden who could do with help in at least one of these three areas and if we can be mekarev libon laavinu sheboshomayim by programs that are free of the influence of NYC Liberals, be they programs modeled on early AA in Akron and Cleveland or be they programs modeled on the religious program of GYE then we are really on to something big.

Naturally others who could qualify for other fellowships, Nicotine Anonymous, Clutterers Anonymous, Gamblers Anonymous, Cocaine Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous and others would have a model to use too...

In the meantime, it is avodas Hashem, one day at a time, passing it on to one addict at a time

Battleworn, do you think we should focus on building a program for ALL addictions, or should we focus on Lust addiction alone for now, and one day we might be able to use the same pattern to help Yidden in other addiction as well?

Reb Guard,

The Gemoro Says,

"Tofasto Meribo Lo Tofasto, Tofasto Mi'ut Tofasto!"

It's Not My Opinion, it's the Gemoro's

E.L.

Reb Battle,

Like NB said, "This is The Elevator to the top!"

But don't stop because the Y"H keeps on adding floors faster then we can walk the steps.

E.L.

E.L, I agree, but if we design a Torah program that gets to the root of ALL addictions, it is not that we are undertaking a LARGER project that will require MORE material and more work, rather it simply means that we may be able to find the core underlying issues of what makes anyone act in addictive, self-destructive manners, regardless of the addiction. And once we find that, we would actually be SIMPLIFYING things, not undertaking TOO MUCH at once. Do you get my drift?

But it may be worthwhile still to focus only on Lust addiction now, since perhaps there are many things about the various other addictions which won't all work with the same strategy. I don't know... That's my question for Battleworn and Boruch... (I am open to either way).

PLease keep in mind the fact that in every/any type of illness, the differences between each and every person can be....unlimited. What I mean to say is...if you are looking to build a new shita, there is no "one" approach that will be good for everyone. It's the same as a "new diet book". The author is sure that his diet, which made him healthy is "the" diet for everyone. So, he writes a book. Then others eat his diet and get sick. Why, his body, his metabolism, his blood, his nervous system are all unique to him. It is difficult to make a "shita" that will work for all.
  NOt that I am negged to the idea, but the above is a metzios. Everyone is different, and unique,and needs "their" diet so to speak.

Reb Guard,

I love your attitude.

I wish I was so willing to help and go out of my way for people like you do.

Take On The World & May Hashem Back You 120%

E.L.

Rabbeinu, I want to answer your question together with Me's point. We are not trying to develop a new shitoh, we're trying to make the Torah's shitoh available to everyone. It's true that there are different sorts of addictions and different sorts of people. But if we are successful be"H in laying out the Torah approach "kishulchan aruch"-like a set table ready for the meal, then the overwhelming majority of what every person needs to break free of any addiction will automatically be included. Different types of people [and people with different types of addictions] will just relate to it differently and apply it differently.

P.S. I have to try to keep away from the forum for a couple of days in order to concentrate on a different aspect of this, so don't expect to see me here.

Perfect. That's GREAT.

I really don't belong here now, but I just have to get this big Yesod off my chest. (I was going to post it in Yaakov's thread in the B"M but it doesn't fit in there right now)

It's common knowledge that we live in a generation of superficiality. Our hearts are like stone and our avodas Hashem can be "Mitzvas anashim milumodoh". A person can easily live his whole life like that and never even realize that something is wrong.

That's all until Hashem sends the addiction in to the picture. The addiction forces us to change our attitude to our whole avodas Hashem and life in general (which are really one and the same). This BTW has been one of my main messages since the early days of the forum.

I believe this is true for everyone, and I believe that we all agree on this. If ANYONE disagrees, it's very important for us to hear your opinion, so please speak up.

To sum up, every addict needs an overhaul.

[until here, I think there's universal agreement.]

The Torah has the power to make that overhaul, when used according to the Manufacturers instructions. {Not all these instructions are obvious to all, from the words of Chazal. Hashem sent Tzadikim in the recent generations that were given the specific task of interpreting the instructions to the people of these generations.} One of the main instructions that's so crucial is that you should WANT the Torah to make the overhaul. (This is BTW also an answer to the "Torah Tavlin" question, see here: rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=614.0 )

When Reb Yaakov or anyone else posts something practical from a Torah source, he's not just building the top floors and he's definitely not trying to build the foundation with glass. Rather he's using the Torah to overhaul the whole business. We can discuss what the prerequisites are, in order for it to help. We can discuss what it takes for the chitzonius to be miorer the pnimius. We can discuss if and how and when action can effect ratzon. But if we think he's trying to build the top floors then we are totally missing his point.   That's my humble opinion. Now I'm ready to hear yours.

Until now I had missunderstood what Yakov and battleworn were trying to accomplish. Now that I understand, I am very excited about it because I think we may be onto something BIG.

As our beloved Dov just posted now to Boruch:

I do not, it turns out, believe SA meetings are that important. I think I have posted precious little about meetings, as a matter of fact. As for me, I went to only one meeting regularly per week for the first few years and do the same now. For me, meetings, step-writing assignments, making calls, and davening, too, are all be-etzem half-measures. What seems to make them work for me and others I know, is only whether through them we obtain an honest relationship with the Ribono Shel Olam. Nothing else really helps. "Meetings" are not SA, but going to meetings certainly appears to break the lies I told myself that I was really, be-etzem "OK" and just had "a problem". I have more to say about this from a Torah perspective but this post is long enough...

To make this project really work though, I think we will need something that SOUNDS almost impossible, or unbelievable, but if we want to SHMASH the biggest Yetzer Hara in the history of Klal Yisrael, we need to be ready to do this. Are you ready to hear?

Ok, what we will need for this project is the complete ACHDUS of a team of people, that until now THOUGHT their approaches were completely different, but I believe they are really one and the same, and we will need ideas from both sides of the spectrum. We will need the following team of five:

• Guard (that's me, no not "me", me)


• Battleworn


• Yakov Shwartz


• Boruch


• Dov

If we can convince these amazing people to join our project and work with us, and work TOGETHER with love and mutual respect, then I believe we can come out with something BOMBASTICLY powerful. We need Talmidai Chachmim like Battleworn, Yakov, Dov and Boruch on one side, and we also need people with lots of 12-Step experience to know "WHAT IS IT THAT WE ARE LOOKING FOR IN THE TORAH APPROACH THAT WORKS SO WELL WITH MILLIONS OF OTHERS". So on this side, we'll have Dov and Boruch. That's enough for me. (And I'll be the "middle-man" who moderates this project and brings any unsolvable questions to Rabbi Twerski for a decision).

Be warned: The Satan will not let this happen easily though. He already tried to pre-empt this revolution with Machlokes recently. He felt it coming. He is feeling the heat. His end is near!! But it is up to us. We CAN do it. YES WE CAN!

This is an official invitation to all parties involved. Please post your answer below. Are you willing to work with us on this for Klal Yisrael's sake? Are you willing to work together with mutual love and respect? (If there are any disagreements that may lead to debate, send them to me to moderate. I will be the go-between. No debate on this thread of any kind, only discussion).

Mi La'Hashem Alai!

P.S. I would like that at least some of us read Rabbi Twerski's book called "Self Improvement? I'm Jewish!" which he claims is the same as the 12-Steps from a Torah perspective. This could be very useful to us in this project. Anyone have the book? If not, can anyone commit to try and buy it? (It's hard to get in Israel I think, so Boruch or Dov might be the best bet...)

Dear Chevra -
"Even moasu habonim - huysa lerosh pinah"
Dovid hamelech refers to himself here. He was despised by so many, and precious few (including himself) thought he'd amount to anything. This helped him learn "leis lei migarmei klum". He chose to maintain that midah his whole life no matter what the success. Ironically, this was precisely the way Hashem helped him bring the midah of Malchus (leis lei...) to actually function in our world.

Addicts are perceived as quite low in society. It is funny how these days being sober in AA is almost something you'd put on your resume! Not so with lust addiction! It just isn't respectable...perhaps it should remain so. It helps us feel more like young Dovid hamelech felt...

Nevertheless, Hashem has elevated us to stay clean, through whatever derech He helped us find, as described in our posts - machlokes included. (and berdichever helps keep the elevation going!)

If we can all work together to share what we have experienced and make our experience strength and hope available to others I'd like to be part of that, please. Our experiences are different, but R' Guard has written that our goal is the same. Getting comfortable with the fact that we will each need to maintain our integrity to maintain our usefulness may not come easy.  For example, AA has 12 traditions they learned - all the hard way. They had terrible problems in the first years but matured and emerged into a recovery movement that has helped millions, including many of us. It is perhaps time that this occurs as a movement among yidden, rather than a "one-man-show" in R' Twersky.

Two suggestions:
1- let us each think and PM eachother what our personal goal in sobriety/staying clean really is, for ourselves today
..and even if they come out to be slightly different:
2- let each contributor agree on what makes us similar and make that clear in writing, for ourselves, and perhaps as a JA (jewish addicts) motto. I think these are a good basis for working together. What do you think?
May Hashem help us remain clean today and be close supports to each other first, and then to the rest of the needy of klal yisroel.
with respect, hope and love,
Dov