Wow, I feel like an ant... I'm gonna go run under a log while these giants continue their holy discussion that surely the Malachim are gathering around to listen to (or read).


P.S. Do Malachim read?

P.P.S. If yes, do they read English?

P.P.P.S. Do they even know the URL of this forum?

P.P.P.P.S. Wait, they surely don't use the Tomedika internet!

P.P.P.P.P.S. How many P's are you allowed to use in P.S's?

Ok, I'm under the log  :-[

...and I'm the beetle biting your leg.

;D

Ok. it looks like i'm having a three way discussion.
first of all Dov, i was very happy with a lot of what you wrote ,and i appreciate your ellaberation . i think we are using the same  words for different ideas .  you started off saying
"May I keep sobriety my #1 priority and my doorway into avodas Hashem." Amen.
if i understand you correctly,you don't want to make the fact that it is avodas H' your priority for reasons you mentioned later(gayvah tsnamis etc.) now when you say avodas H' you seem to mean the goal or purpose we want to reach . Am i right ? what H' wants from you to achieve your Gan Eden , olam habah , tsidkus etc. which could derail your struggle and shift your focus into an unhealthy area. Ihope i 've got you so far .
I understand ,agree , and have done the same,thing albeit in different areas, in my own life. that is not however what i meant by avodas H' . i'll ellaberate in a minute . then you said,
" please, I am not seperating it from Torah at all and never did. I am looking at it in terms of avodah, process not theory, principle, nor goal." here when you use the word avodah  i think (hope ) we are using it the same way . (not sure what you mean by principle tho'). here i understand you to mean process as you said. gain , i hope i got this right . you wish to focus on the daily work involved and the tiny steps "one day at a time" and not the whole mountain .don't pick your head up and ask are we there yet or you'll never get there .  this too i wholeheartedly agree with and it is replete in the baalay Mussar as  basicly Avodas Hamussar in a nutshell . ( though they mean it for a different reason , the far reaching effects of one repeated behavior however small etc,.)

Having said all this , if we go back to your first statement , it would seem it can be understood in two ways . 1) sobriety is a process you can use to help you achieve your goal as a jew("doorway").saying it that way gets into what we've aready mentioned .
or, 2) sobriety is needed as a doorway into  starting the process of serving him at all.
this version is more disturbing to me. although it may be totally unintentional on anyones part, and also untrue, the implication is that it is outside or b/f serving H' .and not part of it . Unless , of course what's meant is what the Mesilas Yesharim says,"and indeed[the pasuk]specifies from the group of obligations of the heart, fear and love [of G-d] ,them being the two great pillars upon which the AVODAH rests." If so , i'm argueing with the Rmchal" , not a good place to be . :-[
Ok. theres a lot more ,but my Avodah (family )is calling for me to get off the screen. chow for now.
LV
p.s. Dov , i didn't mean this as an attack on your derech for yourself ,and am not ch'v suggesting you change,as i've made clear a few times on this thread. I didn't address the points to you at all . i referring to the way SA ,in general ,nd you ,in specific were being presented to frum people on the site without ellaberation and explanation on certain key points. that's all. you sound to me like a wonderful yid that i would probably love to talk to about torah and machshavah .and by the way i'm guilty of Lo sachmod on your learning schedule !if i could do a quarter of that i'd be flying.
hoping to find out that we're all not really argueing at all!
36 again.

G-ht 'n himmel, I actually read the first 1/2 of your post and each word fit perfectly in my brain-eleh. It was nice. Perhaps you should start worrying!  ;D
As far as the second half anf the two versions goes, please:
Read the intro of "Getting to Know Yourself" the english version by the Bilvavi rabbi (R Itamar Schwartz) specifically about recognizing the aspect of practicality and spirituality with respect to our actual avodah.
Then, please remind me exactly what you are referring to as "your first statement".
Then, let's talk again here....
aurvois.....

dov wrote on 20 Jan 2010 21:44:


Ouch! oh it's you... Hi Dov!