Read once, then minimize to save screen space.

Forum Overview

Post on the forum to get support, tell your story and reach out for help when feeling weak!

You will never be alone in this struggle again.

The GYE forum is anonymous platform of group support, and a life-line of chizuk for hundreds of people in exactly your situation. 

To use the forum you need to first become a member of the site, sign up here.

After signing up to the site, go to the forum, enter one of our boards and press "New Topic" to begin posting! 

Welcome, Guest

Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps"
(0 viewing) 
A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.

TOPIC: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 4942 Views

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 24 Jun 2009 11:20 #7181

  • battleworn
Rabeinu, I'm working on it. You better get ready!
Last Edit: by batmelech.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 24 Jun 2009 22:55 #7326

  • Dov
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Baby-steps; Easy does it.
  • Posts: 1915
  • Karma: 333
battleworn wrote on 21 Jun 2009 11:22:


3) Those who found that the Torah couldn't help them, was the problem with the Torah in general; or perhaps with what they did or didn't learn?


To those that found that the Torah didn't work for them, I ask the following:

In those dark days did you know that:
a) The purpose that Hashem sent you to this world was to work on this very issue?

b) The reason we are given a lifetime is because that's how long it takes until we get it right?

c) Hashem doen't make bad investments and when He gave you this mission, He knew what He was doing?

d) Everything depends on the eyes and the heart?

e) Every effort that we make is worth infintely more than anything in this world EVEN IF WE FELL IN THE END?

f) The only thing we have bechira on, is Ratzon; success is only in the hands of Hashem?

g) The Torah specifcaly tells us, that when all else fails, all we need to do is have pure Emunah and leave everything up to Hashem?

h) The only way to fight the y"h is to learn how to avoid him?

i) Not only is this nissoyon not a hinderance to your success, but in fact it's the only way possible for you to get to your goal?

j) Hashem is totaly and completely on your side, and he's NOT disgusted with you?

k) Every yerida is always a preparation for an aliyah?

l) The greatest nachas ru'ach for Hashem is when someone who is in the grip of the y'h still tries to fight -This the ultimate Shechina Betachtonim which is the purpose of all creation?

m) Hashem does not expect you do it alone? (And even if you knew that, were you able to get real help - the kind of help that people are getting on this heiliger network?)

n) Every effort end every good ratzon adds up, and at the end Hashem brings the yeshu'a in the zechus of everything together?

I have a lot more to ask, but this is what came to mind now.




Dear Battleworn -

1)The answer of my heart to your question is no. I did not know these things. Furthermore, I believethat had I known them I would never have needed SA.

2)Now, lets get honest here and define "knowing these things". The emphasis is on the quality of the knowledge. Yes, I was aware of them, and yes, if you'd have asked me I'd have answered that i believe they are true. But guess what?
I would have been lying. Wasn't I supposed to? You are not supposed to believe kefirah, and it's even worse to say it, no?
Did I put on talis and tefilin? Of course. But I also masturbated, went to establishments on ill-repute and trashed the life of my wife and my kids putting them in the backseat to lust. I was clearly worshipping lust with Hashem. I guess it was sheetuf. But I'm not saying a chidush here.
The chofetz chayim writes, that a person doing an aveira is also doing a shtikel kefira (in Hashem, the Torah, whatever) along with it, because: how could he do a thing Hashem doesn't want him to do? he must lack something in the emunah...no?
How do I know this? the answer is that through working the steps I have come to a certain amount of (growing) true emuna in just these things.
How do I know I have this emuna? because I see that I do not need to act out because I feel Hashem answering me and caring for me, living with me. All as a result of the steps. Do you think I am just being gullible?

So you ask if I knew these things, but I think you really must mean: where you aware of these concepts? The reason I say that is: Do you think that the concepts - any of them - are things you or I could have been told about to have any real effect on our lives? That's it? "Oh, I never knew hashem was on my side, thanks for the information!" That is not how it worked for me, at all. I had to learn that each of these things are reality, not just be aware of them.  I believe most yidden around me may just be aware of them and that is enough for them. As Chuck C said: "A belief in G-d is good, but it is not enough for alcoholics. An Alkie needs to live in the constant awareness of the living presence of the Creator." Sounds suspiciously like deveikus, but what do I know about such things really.
I couldn't get it through the normal channels of yiddishkeit. It (yiddishkeit's values) apparently had to be presented to me as i stared down the barrel of the gun of lust! Now let me ask you: How lucky can a man be?!
Does this answer your questions to your satisfaction? Is it helpful? All the best!
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: by nvrvr.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 08:59 #7344

  • battleworn
Reb Dov, thank you so much for replying.


So you ask if I knew these things, but I think you really must mean: where you aware of these concepts?


No I didn't mean that. But from experience, I know that there is a way to get people to really know these things. There are people in the world that have the power to get these things through to others. That's how I recovered. (But I'm not an addict, I'm an ex-addict) I personaly watched an Odom Godol change someones life in about 40 minutes. This bochur had abandoned his Yiddishkeit and was not keeping anything. The Odom Gadol spoke to him for 40 minutes and the guy made an about face. Two weeks later he was in Yeshiva for the new zman.

But I would also like to know if you were aware of all of them. And if not, which ones?
Last Edit: by rondo.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 09:07 #7345

  • the.guard
  • Current streak: 420 days
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 6356
  • Karma: 116
What an answer! Battle, do you see what greatness a Yid can achieve when Hashem blesses them with NO CHOICE?? I am in AWE. This is what I was saying to you before Battle, that all the knowledge in the world won't help an addict. It needs to be FELT in the HEART. Unfortunately, it takes "staring down the barrel of the gun of lust" to be ready to TRULY internalize these yesodos. And at that point, we can even get them from goyim. We have no where to go but UP. Maybe we should have a Jewish program one day. That would also work if it used the same Ikronos of the 12-Step groups. But what can we do that it doesn't exist yet? Not everyone who hits bottom can go to this "gadol" you mention and get the inspiration they need to recover from lust addiction. This Bochur made an about face because he was missing some understanding, some Yedia, some inspiration. But a lust addict like Dov needs 11 years of constant interaction with other addicts, meetings, phone calls, etc... A disease can't be healed with one meeting, no matter WHAT this gadol will tell him. At least I believe so. But if we had a Jewish PROGRAM like the 12-Steps, maybe...
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: 25 Jun 2009 09:11 by SomeOne26.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 13:09 #7357

  • battleworn
Rabeinu Guard, I hereby give up trying to get through to you.This post was a reaction to R' Guard's reply to my email. I deeply regret the tone, as it implies that he was guilty for not understanding me. As I explained in the other thread, this was simply not the case
Last Edit: 28 Jun 2009 10:02 by haelp123.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 13:57 #7363

  • the.guard
  • Current streak: 420 days
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 6356
  • Karma: 116
Ok, now we can for sure change your name from Battleworn to BattleNEVERWorn  ;D

What did you think of my reply #156 on this page? I sent it to you by e-mail as well, but I wrote it a bit more detailed there...
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by simple103.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 14:13 #7368

  • battleworn
I can't concentrate on that right now, because it's not important to me. I did NOT ask Torah Bagoyim al Taamin. Quite the opposite, I said that if it bothers YOU, we can discuss it a different time [because it's not relevant to the disscussion]. But you didn't read my email seriously, so you got that and a lot of other things mixed up. [ I'm sure he read it very carefully. I also regret the harsh tone]
Last Edit: 28 Jun 2009 10:05 by haelp123.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 14:27 #7369

  • the.guard
  • Current streak: 420 days
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Moderator
  • Posts: 6356
  • Karma: 116
I did read your e-mail seriously, and although you consider this "not relevant to the discussion", I consider it the very answer to your entire approach, so if you won't take the time to "concentrate on it", then we can't very well continue this discussion, can we?
Webmaster of www.guardyoureyes.org - Maintaining Moral Purity in Today's World. We’re here on a quest ; it’s really all a test. Just do your best and G-d will do the rest.
Last Edit: by 8NACH-NACH8.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 14:43 #7371

  • battleworn
I already said that in any case we can't
Last Edit: by lior1986.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 25 Jun 2009 23:01 #7434

  • Dov
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Baby-steps; Easy does it.
  • Posts: 1915
  • Karma: 333
battleworn wrote on 25 Jun 2009 08:59:

Reb Dov, thank you so much for replying.


So you ask if I knew these things, but I think you really must mean: where you aware of these concepts?


No I didn't mean that. But from experience, I know that there is a way to get people to really know these things. There are people in the world that have the power to get these things through to others. That's how I recovered. (But I'm not an addict, I'm an ex-addict) I personaly watched an Odom Godol change someones life in about 40 minutes. This bochur had abandoned his Yiddishkeit and was not keeping anything. The Odom Gadol spoke to him for 40 minutes and the guy made an about face. Two weeks later he was in Yeshiva for the new zman.

But I would also like to know if you were aware of all of them. And if not, which ones?

Dear Battleworn,
1- I think I should let you know the respect I have for you to make a point of saying you are an ex-addict. I have heard others say this in meetings. I don't believe it's the approach for me and apparently others feel the same, but it is apparently working for you and alei vehatzlach!
2- Perhaps there are people who can even convince addicts of the many basic concepts that a healthy jewish mind is made of that were listed. I looked precisely for that in therapy (four+ shrinks - enough to change a two lightbulbs!), rabonnim (a minyan), and the ARIz"l's mikvah (perhaps the bravest of my efforts!), and let's not forget the Creator Himself: I asked Him a lot of times to help me out. Why didn't He listen? Is it just another "Holocaust kashyeh"? i think not. Hashem only comes in where people let Him in, and I had no room for Him in my life. All I wanted was to be able to still act out and yet get better at the same time. (Kinda like we'all did at Sinai w/that eigel statue - we wanted to keep the luchos, too!) Until my own personal "luchos" broke, before my very eyes. You know, i have completely forgotten where i was going with this...
Oh yeah, the awareness thing. Well, it took the recovery of some of my sanity to get back to faith in Hashem's personal interest in me, and many of the other beautiful things that were listed.
But Battleworn, you are leaving something out - the "knowing it" approach is a bit simplistic for another reason: I and anyone else i know sober and in recovery is still growing in these awarenesses, every day. Not because I read (and learn be'iyun) the RMBM explaining to me that i am halachikly required to, nor because Rav Dessler explains why it is really logical that I should. It is only through experience and struggle in avodas Hashem with sanity that Hashem gives these gifts, in my experience.
Now, it may very well be different for non-addicts. I'll end with a story:
Never mind, just read the heiligeh Divrei Chayim (in vayeitzei?) on the Ba'al Shem Tov's wonderful explanation of the posuk "Kayl nekamos Hashem". Good Shabbos, amigo!!
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: by Sipo.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 26 Jun 2009 09:46 #7454

  • battleworn
Perhaps there are people who can even convince addicts of the many basic concepts that a healthy jewish mind is made of that were listed. I looked precisely for that in therapy (four+ shrinks - enough to change a two lightbulbs!), rabonnim (a minyan), and the ARIz"l's mikvah (perhaps the bravest of my efforts!), and let's not forget the Creator Himself: I asked Him a lot of times to help me out. Why didn't He listen? Is it just another "Holocaust kashyeh"? i think not.


I think the answer is quite simple. Klal Yisroel has known for thousands of years, that a time is going to come when things will be so dark that we simply will not be able to find the tools to deal with it. It's a rule of nature that light only comes after dark.

The light of the Geulah is going to be an all-encompassing light that is so powerful and clear that there won't be any confusion at all in the world. Everyone will see Hashems glory perfectly clearly etc.

According to the rules of nature that Hashem established חק נתן ולא יעבור, the only way that, that great all-encompassing light can be revealed is with first having a great all-encompassing dark fill the world. So the fact that people search and search is really no chidush to me. The chidush is when we don't give up. And mind you, that's a great big chidush.


Hashem only comes in where people let Him in, and I had no room for Him in my life. All I wanted was to be able to still act out and yet get better at the same time. (Kinda like we'all did at Sinai w/that eigel statue - we wanted to keep the luchos, too!) Until my own personal "luchos" broke, before my very eyes. You know, i have completely forgotten where i was going with this...
Oh yeah, the awareness thing. Well, it took the recovery of some of my sanity to get back to faith in Hashem's personal interest in me, and many of the other beautiful things that were listed.
But Battleworn, you are leaving something out - the "knowing it" approach is a bit simplistic for another reason: I and anyone else i know sober and in recovery is still growing in these awarenesses, every day. Not because I read (and learn be'iyun) the RMBM explaining to me that i am halachikly required to, nor because Rav Dessler explains why it is really logical that I should. It is only through experience and struggle in avodas Hashem with sanity that Hashem gives these gifts, in my experience.


All this, has also been my experience. All I'm adding is that there are people in the world that, can get all this through to people, without having to slow down at all in Avodas Hashem. Instead we take our tremendous, above average, spiritual energy that has until now been hijacked by the y'h and diverted to lust; and redirect it towards it's natural direction of Avodas Hashem.
Last Edit: 28 Jun 2009 10:08 by haelp123.

Re: Some thoughts on "Torah and the 12 steps" 26 Jun 2009 12:03 #7464

  • battleworn
I just realized that I may have been misundertood, when I mentioned the story about the bochur. I did not mean to imply, that in 40 min. of speaking to the right person, an addict's problems will be taken care of. Even in the case of the bochur; if there would have been follow up, he would be so much better off now (2 years later) than he is.

And a lust addict is a whole lot more complicated. My point in bringing the story was just to give a simple illustration how there are ways to get these yesodos through to people (provided that they're interested). If you need an example of a lust addict, you'll have to take me and some of the other fellows on the forum.
Last Edit: 28 Jun 2009 10:09 by haelp123.
Time to create page: 0.49 seconds

Are you sure?

Yes