cande wrote on 08 Jul 2024 15:00:

In an effort to be less abrasive, I hope I did not sacrifice in clarity.
It's not ok vs can't say that it's ok. My intention was to lead with a declaration that I'm not condoning the behavior. We all have behaved in much less than ideal ways. I'm not here to tell him that its ok to do something asur or otherwise CV. Anyone who goes to a place with women in bathing suits knows what the deal is. We shouldn't, though that doesn't mean we won't. What I'm suggesting is not specifically for Parev, it would apply to anyone doing any number of things because the exposures are everywhere. 

This was not intended to be any justification, it is damage control and trying to salvage from whatever reality we end up choosing.

Love you back,
BH

parev wrote on 08 Jul 2024 12:12:

I dont even know where to start . 
There is SO MUCH terribly  wrong with this post.... 

( this is the not forceful response)

redfaced wrote on 08 Jul 2024 15:46:

Why, redfaced? What's the matter? When you were a mashpia learning full time in the mir you never went swimming with your wife in a bikini with a bunch of other shiksas in bikinis? I mean, who among us hasn't? Sheesh, relax!

Parev, did you take the opportunity offered and reach out to Cordnoy?
If not, the time might be now.

Bennyh wrote on 08 Jul 2024 16:14:

Its probably just me being jealous....

@parev, Can you please explain what your question is: Is it if its allowed religiously? or even its not allowed, if you should still go ahead?

parev wrote on 08 Jul 2024 12:12:

Blaargghh, what's gonna be with this endless Jewish guilt? (ich mein Jzhich oich)

In the pool? Guilty.

Out of the pool? Guilty. 

Stay away from Bikini Paradise? Guilty.

Hang around Bikini Paradise? Guilty. 

Davend but fell? Guilty.

Didn't fall but didn't daven? Guilty.

Blaargh, aarghhh blaargh!!!


( this is the not forceful response)

Parev I have been reading about your struggles. But this I don’t chopp    Apparently you’re some rav Marbitz torah or something but it seems like your wife caught you. I would never expect my wife to ask me to go to a mixed pool or beach. If it came up I would obviously say no. If it was off season maybe we could figure it out. But it’s the summer and she’s asking you to go the beach!? That makes no sense. to ask a “rav” or any religious figure to go. It must be she knows you’re sleeping around and you don’t care about your self image because otherwise it doesn’t make sense. Just a Heara.  Wish you look on your journey

abieham wrote on 08 Jul 2024 17:44:

I appreciate this.
If she caught me she iskeeping it a big secret from me... I wish  could be more open and honest with her...
She is from a less yeshivish background and just doesn't see an issue, and again my issue isn't shmiras enayim persay [oogling]
I wouldn't go in rabbinic garb and there would be no chilul hashem [unless I meet my chavrusa there... ]
A mixed beach is not an orgy... - one can go without lust being an issue, it's more the frum aspect [and timtum halev] of it that bothers me 

abieham wrote on 08 Jul 2024 17:44:

LOL

parev wrote on 08 Jul 2024 18:00:

Issues, wives, chillul hashem's and orgies aside, it's probably an issur do'ariasa. Doesn't matter if that's your particular issue or not, you are a man with eyes. Lo sasuru is a real issur that really applies. 
If she's not aware of that, then you can explain it to her nicely (the existence of the issur. Not the part about being a man with eyes.)

There's a general issue that many of us have. We are so ashamed of our history of lust abuse that we are ashamed to raise productive and normal topics about this area. Your wife is fully capable of understanding this issur, just like she understands the other 612 mitzvos. And she won't assume you have some crazy issue if you bring it up. Aderaba, she'll respect you more.
We also sometimes have an issue respecting this particular issur at all ("I do xyz and I should worry about one more girl in a bikini?") Obviously this is an incorrect attitude.

There's no doubt you should pamper her. But there's endless kosher ways to do it. You're a smart guy, I'm sure you could think of some better alternative.

(Disclaimer: I just went on vacation and my wife dragged me to the hotel pool. Bh it was empty but idk what I would have done if it was not...)

Totally get your point.
I am asking sincerely would the same apply to flying?
I asked my Rosh Yeshiva if I could cancle my flight to my brothers chasuna because of shmiras einayim issues [It was before my SA days - and I was oogling everywhere] He said just take a chumash with and do chumash rashi.
It could be his innocence, or it could be that he held you still gotta live and just do your best.
Open to hear something wise on the topic.

You can't brush everything under one rug.
What is normal living for you? Are you such a machmir (or porush) in all areas of life to raise or lower your standards to that level across the board?
Asur is still asur. shmiras einayim on a plane is not equivalent to shmiras einayim at a pool/beach. Not socially acceptable to wear bikinis on a plane (yes, you'll find some exception - but it's not the norm). If your brother got married on a public beach on Sun afternoon, then maybe the Rav would say don't go. 
Yes we all have to live.
No we can't use that as an excuse to do whatever.
Hashem knows what we're doing. We have to know too.
Hatzlacha

parev wrote on 09 Jul 2024 14:51:

Only called a Rasha כשאיכא דרכא אחרינא - To fly somewhere there may not be any other option so your best bet is to stick your nose in a Sefer.
Mixed pool is somewhat of a different story ( even without the bikini)

parev wrote on 04 Jul 2024 18:32:

עדים @ a engagement are not needed...... BH.

stay safe,
enjoy vacay,
& send us pics.