i dont know what to do..im reading the handbook for now and just keep on posting on here

You might also find a few useful ideas on the thread "Additional Tools for Recovery." (see link on the bottom of this message).

It sounds like you are having a hard time with this idea of surrender. But the more we fight, the worse the struggle gets.

If G-d is your co-pilot, switch seats.

--Elyah

what do you mean surrender? to never give in to lust anymore? i would loveeeee that...just dont know how to do that.

how is it possible that right when i have an urge i say im powerless and ask Hashem to take away the lust...all of a sudden im good? im a tzadik? im not looking at the girls anymore? just because i said that or wtvr i would say? thats wat it seems...
i believe in tefila...but that quick??

Hi. I'll try to answer your question, but I hope you also noticed the first part of my message (I've been getting very scholastic lately, very much into quoting myself):

Eye.nonymous wrote on 31 May 2012 20:10:


What you said, "not give in to lust," struck me as meaning, "be able to resist lust." But that, once again, is still fighting it--which doesn't work.

"Surrender," I think, means "give it up." For contrast, for the sake of clarification, trying to STOP but without surrendering sounds like this, "I'm going to stop. But, I really WANT to do it. I really NEED to do it. Acting out is the only way I know how to cope with my bad feelings and my bad lot in life." So, I stop. But I still believe deep down in my heart that I really SHOULD still be entitled to act out, and that I still NEED to do it for my own survival and (in)sanity.

Surrender, for starters, means accept that you DON'T NEED to act out, and YOU'RE NOT ENTITLED to act out.

But then there's the practical side. How does one actually do this?

It means, for one, taking ACTION when those urges come along--call someone, post, write about what's bothering you, do an act of kindness for someone, and pray, too. And, get yourself out of the situation, take a walk, have a cup of tea, listen to some music, ANYTHING that works.

But, I generally have found that, once in the throes of lust, I can't really do anything to stop. I have had a few near-falls where the only reason I didn't fall was because I am always calling people from recovery that, at that moment they happened to call me (by the grace of G-d) and I at least still had enough sense left in me to pick up the phone and tell them I was on the way to look at P*rnography.

But, that's beside the point.

So, the real problem is that I can't act out anymore. That means I'm going to have to deal with life. That mean's I'm going to start to feel the pain that I've been covering up all these years. And I'm going to have to deal with that. The same tools that help to get rid of lust also works for getting rid of the pain--calling people, asking for help, posting about it. It is this pain which compels me to act out. When I deal with that pain, when I start to be able to deal with life with some measure of maturity and serenity, then the pain subsides and, as a result, I don't need to act out nearly as much.

Over the years in recovery, I have shifted from a focus on NOT ACTING OUT to, instead, dealing in a better way with my own feelings and with life and with other people.

I have surrendered my right to act out (sometimes I am more aware of this than others), so I have no choice but to face life and deal with it and to grow up (and sometimes I am better at this than at other times).

And, along the road to recovery, I have gained very practical tools that help me to do this.

Let me know if this clarifies anything.

And, by the way...

Eye.nonymous wrote on 31 May 2012 20:10:


--Elyah

...one other thing I would add, as Dov pointed out:

We're dealing with gradual recovery, not an instant cure. If we are doing any bit better today than we were yesterday, if we are masturbating less often than we used to, if we are taking a few less looks at those women on the street, if we are any bit calmer or more content overall, then that's something to be happy with.

--Elyah

Woah, easy, sir. That was a few all-or-nothing, black-and-white interpretations of what the Eyeball guy wrote, happyjew. He did not say that if you do that, you'll "be good all of a sudden". He did not say that you would "not be looking at the girls anymore". And he did not say that you would be a tzaddik. Let's not trivialize this stuff.

And finally, he was not talking about "just because i said that or wtvr i would say".

I mean this seriously and respectfully - are you ready and willing to hear anything if it is meant sincerely and only to suggest help? Well:

You say "I would loveeee that...just don't know how to do it" I doubt that is an accurate assessment. Maybe, just maybe, you - like me till I become ready to surrender a bit of my lust - still love looking at the pretty girls, love using their images and love fantasizing about what they could do with you, and love masturbating to all that. It feels great!

The truth is the first tool to get Hashem's 'attention'. So I try to admit my truth to Him directly and openly. Hey, it's a start. But certainly closing my eyes tightly and lying to myself and to Him about 'how disgusting lust is and how I want Him to take it away already!' - while in truth I love it like crazy - is not davening, but 'playing tzaddik'.

In the White Book, Roy called that, "...asking Him to take it away - so that I would not have to give it up!" It doesn't work that way.

Yeah, sure we hate the aftermath of the zera on the floor, the guilt, and the aveiro, the onesh worry, whatever...we do! And we do want to be tzaddikim. But if we still really, really still want that sweet feeling of schmutz, Hashem knows that. He is not easily lied to. So that tefillah is really a lie. Nu, at least to say "I admit to You that I really do want to look at her again, zeeseh Tatty, even more than I want right now to learn Your Torah or do Your mitzvos. But I can't afford to use her image! So please help me for free and make it easier and less painful for me to walk away from here now without (ab)using her any more. Thank-You." Maybe that's worth something and will work. It does for me and others, at times.

So why in the world should that prayer "work"?

And for the truthful prayer that does work:

How would I not be looking at the girls any more? How would I become a tzaddik?

Have you ever trained a dog? It takes weeks to untrain useless and disruptive patters and train new responses into the dog. Practice and time.

You think the problem is the nudes, the girls, the masturbation. Many wise addicts tell us that is not true. The schmutz is a drug. Our problem is that we need the drug. Life is just not tolerable without the fun and excitement we generate with the fantasy and masturbation - and for frum yidden, we also seem to need the excitement of my oh, so famliliar old "cyclically-sincere Teshuvah-thon rainbow":

Take me back!! Uch I hate myself, I stink, what a loser...mikvah, Teshuvah, crying, regretting....phew, He took me back!! I feel soooo close to Hashem! I found the answer and can finally tell other suffering guys on GYE how to beat it!....wow, that lecha Dodi was awesome. I can't even imagine myself masturbating again, this is so wonderful....I wonder if my "bris" still works right? Hmm...it's been a month or two since I had an erection. I won't touch myself, just check if I will be ready when 'mitzvha time' comes (after I get married...after I start dating).......woops! I fell!! Damn! Arrrghh! I am going straight to gehinom! Uch, Take me back!!


Real recovery - like real life - is not flashy, and needs no extremes to prove we are alive. It's living life on life's (really G-d's) terms, one day a t a time. I never pray for tomorrow's cleanness, just like I never try to go to the bathroom for tomorrow. Live with G-d today and take it easy, man. It's good enough, don't worry.

Eye.nonymous wrote on 31 May 2012 20:30:



EYE...when reading what u wrote above i felt like u were reading my mind when u were writing it. i always wana stop but feel i need it bec what else am I gana do when im mad and depressed other than watch porn…and then get mad and depressed bec I just watched porn even tho I told myself right before I have to stop!

EYE when I get a chance ill look through the whole additional tools for recovery.

How do I surrender? How do I feel that I really don’t need to act out??

DOV…deep deep down inside me past all my desires I know that I would really loveeeeee to surrender…wtvr that means…does that mean that not so deep down I wana look at porn now? Of course I do! But at the end of the day I know whats right and wrong…I know im gana burn in hell for looking so as much as I still enjoy it…I know the truth…I would pay anything to just get rid of that desire.

Do you guys really not have a need or have any feelings for porn?

Seriously every time you guys..EYE and Dov and everyone else write something here it helps me a lot and I think its just so true and genius.

Thank you so much

happyjew wrote on 01 Jun 2012 07:59:


Again, read just a little bit each day--it's not going to run away. Also, give each tool a chance to sink in, and give yourself a chance to try it on for size.

The beginning of the thread includes emergency tools, so it would be good to have a look at that sooner than later.

happyjew wrote on 01 Jun 2012 07:59:


I LOVE PORN, AND BEAUTIFUL WOMEN, AND MASTURBATION!

My wife is in S-Anon and even tells me that my side of the program is better than her side of it because, "At least you guys have fun when you mess up!"

But, I know it's going to destroy my life and me and everyone I love dearly if I get involved with it. I CAN'T STOP MYSELF once I get started.

So, I try to be involved with life in a healthy way, and that way I just don't think about it so much.

I am learning new tools that are still awkward at times, and still don't quite give me that same adrenaline rush high I could get from a prolonged session of viewing photos of nude women. It's still sometimes hard to appreciate, but I know that life is getting better in a real way, and the pleasures of life I am trying to find now are ones that don't end right afterwards with a big crash into guilt and self-hatred and feelings of denying G-d or of wanting to kill myself.

So, overall, I see that what I am doing now is better than what I used to be doing. But, there are times when I don't exactly have this in the forefront of my consciousness. I just go through the motions of recovery at times, because I know that's ultimately what's best for me and that I'm just not thinking straight if I think otherwise.

--Elyah

The White Book, Page

"The only way we knew to be free of it (lust), was to do it(to use it)...Lusting after the big fix we gave away our power to others..."

Do you see that in you, yet? Do you see that we are not wagging a finger like the Torah does at you - we are not saying "you gotta stop," at all. We are just reflecting back the facts:

We see these lust opportunities and they seem sooo powerful and we seem to neeed them sooo much. We feel absolutely, positively sure that they are in our very best interest. It's not philosophical - it is a body fact. "I need her service - a connection with her, at least a connection in my mind! I can't live without that! Wow, and she's the one, gotta have that one!"

But it is a lie our bodies tell us. Not because of evil - but because my body really believes it! Arguing with it is just silly and makes no sense at all for an addict (I do not know if you are one, but I am speaking for myself, here, if you relate, that's your business). I do not argue - I pray for the women instead of watching her and instead of using her for the sex in my head, instead of following her psychically or mentally. And I say to my G-d (exactly as explicitly as follows:

"You know how much I want to run after her like a dog after liverwurst, I feel I need her image that you made, that her body I feel will save me. You know exactly what I am feeling and how I react now. I am giving so much of my power to her! I am tired of that, cuz it doesn't work - I end up messed up agaiin and again, and I am trying the best I can with what I've got!

So Tatty, sweet tatty, whatever it is that I really am looking for here in my twisted heart - let me find it in You instead somehow, someday. And in the mean time, please take away my lust for her image now and bless her with health, safety, a true honest connection with you and for her to know totally that a real connection with You is the most precious thing she could ever have. Yivorech'cho Hashem, etc... Thank-You so much for this, Tatty.

Now please help me continue doing whatever it was that I was doing (on my way somewhere, buying chulent beans, to work, getting home - whatever - undistracted. I love you so much! "

I do this when I need to and so do many other addicts I know (frum, not frum, Jews and non-Jews), and one day at a time, one temptation at a time, living a different sort of life and sober for years of days, getting freer and freer from lust shtuyot, and the marriage is changing the avodas Hashem is changing, and this is obviously really living.

It all depends on what you want, and what you are willing to do for it. WE all went through phases of the old story: "Sure, I wish I'd stop - but in the meantime, how can I deprive myself of all that great fun?" We want to be free enough of the power of lust - to be able to control and enjoy it when we want to. Kind of like R' Shimon bar Yochai bringing a cooler of sandwiches into the me'orah with him just in case G-d turns out to be a quack. I t does not work that way, and there are thousands of goyim and yidden who know this and are working this program, be"H. Many are sober.

Half-measures do not work.

DOV...can i start with smaller requests from Hashem..i dont know if ill be able to think of a whole megila at the time...

EYE...what do u mean ur wife is in SA?

Not SA; S-Anon. That's the group for spouses of SA addicts.

Of course you can begin with the smaller requests. They are where the action is - they are the real honest ones. The years of "Hashem, please, please help be be 'medabek' to You and please bring me to 'Teshuvah sheleimah lefanecha' "...Though it was very well-intentioned and holy...well, it was obviously meaningless drivel. Cuz it did not come true! For here we are again... The small requests are usually the real ones, and I bet they are the only ones He actually wants.

I do not say that because I have any knowledge of G-d's Will or 'desire', but because everyone I know who gets real with their G-d, ends up doing it by leaving the 'dramatic' and making the little, mundane but very real matters in their lives the main issue between themselves and their very own G-d. And that goes identically for the Jews and non-Jews I know in recovery. Same experience, same result. So you and I can do it, too.