Thanks Dov for your words!!!

But we are all in the same boat!!!

Whats the best way to approach to viewing Women as women, and not always thinking when we see a female "Whats behind the clothes"??????

We need the basic approach and try to practice it all the time.

I do not believe for a second that we are all in the same boat.

And the best way I know to help me and others I know with the problem you refer to is this:

1- Don't examine them. What I examine with my eyes changes ny entire way of thinking in a shocking way - no matter how holy or sober I am...the way I think does completely change when I look at naked people, or nearly naked people, and take the image in.

2- Respect them for the real people they are, and do not believe the porn that teaches me they are just human animals - naked bodies - for my sexual pleasure excitement.

3- Remember that all people - Yid and goy - are cared for by Hashem and have a tachlis as a human being to the Borei Olam...not just you and our Jewish friends. Even this shiksah is an eved Hashem whether she realizes it or not, and is an agent of His Will. So respect them!

4- Pray for people - especially for people I tend to lust after. Hashem cares about them, so why shouldn't I, too? So if I forget about them and do not feel the pull to lust after them, take in their image, then fine - but if they stay with me, then all I need to do is PRAY for them and their well-being from the bottom of my heart, for Hashem loves them. If you do not believe me, then read Tomer Devorah or just get your head screwed on straight - the perspective some of us have that a shiksah (like the word) is subhuman...well, that is the license to take them in our imagination and sex them, rape them, expect them to be all crazy about us, and use them for our own precious sex satisfaction. Yup. That is what porn teaches our hearts every time we use it.

So start to respond with some davening when the tayvoh is strong - and join the Human Race.

I think in this dor, even for non-addicts, that is a davar hashoveh l'chol nefesh.

1- Don't look, and 2- get your head screwed on straight.

I remember one of my first posts here in forum. Dov was one of the first who answered. and he answered more or less with th e same yesod: dawn for the people (in this case those objects of tayve).
I remember my reaction. I was like "thats an interesting mehalech.. i HAVE TO TRY it."
it was a while ago and i still didnt try it out. adraba.
i was walking the other day home (returning from the shul) and i felt i am missing something. I thought, "what could it be? hee???" and then i saw this one girl far away. i was not able to see anything besides that she is dressed VERY non modesto. i close my eyes and started to curse (like i always do in such situations..) and then i remembered. THE CURSNG! i missed the cursing.
it helps...but i wanna try tomorrow your way, reb Dov.
______________
update. i remembered today why i did not apply this strategy the last time.
Dov, what should I daven for? i saw this girl today. and said "Eybirshter, bevakasha ten labachura hazot ketzat moach"... but then i thought, they do have brain!

i remember once i met some girls who dressed absolutely non modesto. and then one day 1 of them opened her mouth on a certain conference and said something. and it was brilliant. i thought oww, THIS GIRL HAS brain! (mamash like the sang in one song, that the brain of those girls is "covered" by their pritzusdikke clothes.

so what should i ask for? for some money, so they would be able to purchase some things which cover more...but things with LESS fabric are much more expensive (for some unclear reason).

so what should i ask for? gesint? chatzluche? what for should i dawn?

Thanks DOV,

But i still need clarification,

First of all i try my best to screw my head straight! But still doesn't get there(At least so far)......

Second So lets say you go into the Bank and go up to the teller, which is a Girl beautifully dressed and of course immodestly dressed, How do we control our thoughts not to think whats behind the clothes etc and do we handle it.

The wrote on 29 Feb 2012 13:18:

RT >

HALAHA VELO LEMAASEH

sorry, just kidding

Funny - the Barichever resurrection guy hit the nail on the coffin...I mean on the head:

'Osuk bimlachto' is exactly the goal for the recovery I am learning in SA. Yes, this is the heter for the cattle farmer to monitor and supervise his animals mating: osuk bimlachto. Since for him it is all about the money, he is watching animals engaging in intercourse but remains focused on the business issue for him - he is paying $5000 per day for this bull to get together with his cows and create some prize-winning calves that will make him a rich man! This is serious, not play. He needs to make sure they are doing it right and that the bull gets introduced to the right cows and does not cause injury or get injured. This is the reality of it for cattle farmers. Ask one. So Chaza"l tell us he is unlikely to come to hirhur. They tell us this is the metziyus.

But the point here is not the 'heter', the point is this: How is it that the cattle farmer is able to see that stuff without getting negatively affected by it? Is it because he is stam, busy? NO! If it were other peoples' animals he would have no heter, even if he was busy doing his taxes on someone else's farm (very busy work), it would be completely assur for him to watch the animals mating, at all.

It is because these animals getting together means something different to him right now. It means money - real parnossah.

So, for us, the program basically is about redifining living. Not about redefining lust. Please do not think I am insulting you here - for I am not. I want to sugeest to you that the fact that it was a great chidush to you that this "woman has a brain" is very nice - but it shows that your natural attitude towards these women is that they are basically stupid objects. Maybe all they are good for is really just their pretty bodies, breasts or sex or whatever. They are not real people with real brains like you and me (and most men), real tzaros that hashem takes seriously and that they really matter.

This is at least 50% of the reason why you have so much lust trouble from them and their pritzusdikeh dressing. Her clothing choice is a product of her upbringing and her inner and outer environment - not because she is pritzus or loose. In fact, from where she is coming, she just may consider today's outfit a little bit 'on the tzniyus side' from what she is used to wearing! And most of the reason you dress the way you do may not because you are tzniyus or good - it is because the yidden you grew up with and live with dress this way. Mostly (but not all) oylem goylem. So you and her have more in common already!

So if you have a hard time naturally respecting her as one of Hashem's human beings that He feeds and takes care of and can even become a chasid umos ha'olam or perhaps even a ger tzedek one day...who knows?...then no wonder you have such trouble from seeing them. They are sex objects and that's what your heart tells you they expect!

If you have read Derech Hashem's writings about hasgocha protis on goyim and want to darshen ah gantzeh toirah about how the goyim are all just like animals that Hashem has no concern for k'mar mid'li, etc...then I will just have to say you do not understand what I am talking about. You are chayav misa bidei Shomayim for walking over to a giy and killing him, period. Saying "they are all probably chayav misah anyway for not keeping the sheva mitzvos, so what's the difference, who cares?" may have some truth to it - but it is still a lie. Because you do not really feirzach that way, yourself! If a goy were walking with his infant and fell in front of you - would you not try to catch the baby before she fell on the ground and might get killed? If a goy was screaming from inside their burning house "Please save us! Save my son! Help! Help!!", would you not do something? Is your heart made of stone - are you dead? When Chaza"l say the siman of a Jew is "Rachmonim, bayshonim, gomlei chasodim" you and I both know they would have tried to save those people. Only a dead man or a Nazi can stand by and not be a human being in times like those.

Sop please. You see you do indeed care for strangers...even goyim strangers.

And she has tzaros. She has real human worries that do matter. She may even pray to her idea of G-d...which may actually be more similar to your idea of G-d than you and I think...and does He listen? I think Goyim are encouraged to pray, too. Yes we can sit in comfort behind judgement - "Ach, they are praying to a confused idea of G-d, so Hashem is disgusted with them and does not hear!" But we know that is not exactly true. Zohar haKadosh says "leis machshovoh tfisah bei klal" - so you and I do not understand Him right at all, either! We pray to a messed up idea of G-d, too. Not as messsed up - but really - what do you believe in is going to save you? What do you turn to? Do you not worship the power of the beauty of these women's sexy images? Why else would you chase them with mesiras nefesh sometimes and at cost or trouble? Why do you want it so badly? Is it not precious to you? Do you not turn sometimes to porn or to masturbating yourself when you are in the emotional meitzarim? This is putting your trust in something else than G-d to save you, isn't it?

OK, I have gone around and around too much and it is too much arichus. I am ashamed!

My point is this: we do not have lust problems over one whom we are busy loving right now. If you are really in recovery, then living is oseik bimlachto - sexy dressed women are just a distraction to the business you are really involved with right now. So you will walk past it. She is none of your business, for you have other business. Just like the farmer. He sees the intercourse - but it means something else to him because he is busy. You can see the women but they mean something else to you - because you are busy going somewhere and thinking about something else.

I try to ignore womens' bodies just as I'd ignore men's bodies. But when that does not work and I find myself preoccupied with the face, body, or whatever, of the Teller Hashem put in His bank over here....I think one of the very best things to get busy with is this: davening for her benefit.

Tatty, You know her and her life. You know the tzaros, confusion, pains and worries she has now and will have in the future all the way till she dies. Her fears and pains about her health, her spouse, her children, her parents, or friends. Her worries about her future. I have the same exact things in my own way and You know them all, too, very well. May it be Your Will before You that You bless her (use davka her correct name here) with a more correct understanding of You according to what You expect from her and give her all the help You can so that she lives her life as one of Your avodim, for You intend all people to be your true avodim in their own tachlis. And please give me, my wife, and children the same brocha to know You more correctly and to come to serve You better according to our tachlis. Ki hakol avodecha, Omein"

This is halocha lema'aseh for me.

PS. I'll be off the forum in a day or so until the beginning of September (in EY)...so will miss this forum till then!
Adios Amigos!!

hm. you have spoken plausible.
accept & agree
thank you for the answer.

now i know what to be mispalel for; strage, its so poshut.

ps. thanx for the arichus.

p.ps: i will miss you to, Dov. Have a nice time in eretz isroel.

dov wrote on 08 Aug 2012 00:11:


Hava a safe trip, Dov. Enjoy, and "poyel alles gits"!
(And thanks for the vacation )

MT

Dov, will you grace our kumzitz with your presence?

Machshovo wrote on 08 Aug 2012 14:45:

Sweet and hilarious, beyachad! Thanks for reminding me why I like you so much, chaver!

TehillimZugger wrote on 08 Aug 2012 16:44:

If you live in EY I'd love to meet you or anyone else from this chevraya kadishasa...speak to Eye.nonymous about it.

I REALLY THANK YOU DOV FOR YOUR WORDS!!!!

My problem is not just on a goiysha women, my issue is with all women allways thinking whats behind the dress! but goishe women's dresses are more open... so i think more when i see more!!!!

So in short words, whats the point of praying for them when u see them and your trigger starts?

Dont get upset that im aksing again to explain me!!
Thanks in advance