Ahron, you did well. You caught yourself, and stopped!

I'm not sure what you meant that you got disgusted and I surely hope you don't mean with yourself! You, by virtue of being capable of overpowering 'the smart one', can not be disgusting in Hashem's eyes.

Take it easy, and keep it up!

Oh, no...another megillah...
DesperateJew wrote on 10 Jun 2010 03:11:

Dear DesperateJew,

The following is purely my own opinion and I do not speak for anyone else and certainly not for GYE:

It is not my practice to criticize, particularly when it it so obvious, as in your comments, that you mean only to be helpful. However I feel it is important to point out that (unless I misread your comments) you are implying to Ahron that he caught himself, and that he is being capable of overpowering the YH. I see your message as one of encouragement. I have a problem with this that I feel I need to share with you. If you can bear with me, I'd appreciate it.

Now, Ahron said:
Ahron wrote on 08 Jun 2010 14:25:

Reading his words, I see a fellow who seems ready to give Hashem all the credit for the victory - not himself. He also gives credit to his buddies for the chizzuk - rather than declaring his new-found power to 'overcome' the YH.

I am sorry if this rubs you the wrong way but everybody is entitled to an opinion, and I want to share mine: I have seen the well-meaning comments some folks give others to "believe in yourself and pat yourself on the back for the clean days you have amassed!", or to be grateful that "you are/were able to beat the YH".

While it seems to be very nice to build up people's self confidence, I have never witnessed this perspective prove helpful to anyone I know, in the long-run. And to my mind, the damage done by the ga'avah that "I can make it" would be the nail in my coffin. I speak about addicts, now. When any addict I have met gets fooled that he or she actually has the power to "beat this thing": yotzo scharo b'hefseido. I cannot recall anyone with this attitude staying sober for very long. My guess is that the 'pressure builds up' after a while...where is their power then? I wonder. It seems an enigma to them: "Well, if I had the power then why don't I have it now?! If He could help me then, why isn't Hashem helping me now? Is he weaker? Does he not like me as much? Is it because of my aveiros that I do not deserve His help?" This entire self-preoccupied way of thinking leads to painful frustration and even to excruciating emunah problems. I have seen it happen here and elsewhere.

Parroting the words, "Well, of course we mean that it is 'with Hashem's help'! That's obvious...we are all frum yidden and ma'aminim b'nei ma'aminim here, aren't we?!" is not enough, in my opinion. Actually, I believe that it is meaningless.

We parroted these words all these years - and never stopped. Has being on GYE for a few months or weeks magically given us real emunah? We weren't really frum then but we are really frum now? I doubt it. Inspiration will only help us stay clean as long as the inspiration lasts. To me, leaning on the crutch of chizzuk and frantically fanning the flames of chizzuk each day is just delaying the inevitable - waiting for the other shoe to drop. At least that is how it'd be for me. This is not a game in many cases. In my case and that of many others, it is a battle to save our minds, our marriages, custody of our children, and our jobs, not a matter of only being happy or 'good people'.

We need to do things very differently than we were doing them before, if we expect to have a very different result. For the addicts among us, I suggest admitting that we have lost the battle and becoming satisfied with remaining 'losers' until further notice. That is, we remain guaranteed to lose as long as we insist upon going about life our way. Addicts who use the 12 steps often discover that they need to surrender to Hashem and to His Will, or they will lose again. That is the 3rd step - and all the ensuing steps are about getting closer to that surrender. BTW, the kavonoh in "Echod" is exactly that: Dying for Him - and then "v'ohavta" is about giving up our plans and control of all our ambitions and desires in this life - bad and good; our very right to live; and surrendering all our talents, money, and priorities - all to Hashem.

Addicts who take the third step set out to accomplish at least some surrender of their egos to Hashem - to save their lives. Cuz this self-abandonment to Hashem is AAs only answer to what you call the YH - self destruction. It seems that AA goes with the 'nuclear option' for problems like addiction. But like I said - if we are to get a different result, we need to go about our lives differently. I do not see "being more frum" as significantly different, that's all. We need a radical change in Derech Eretz - in the underlayment for Torah, rather that "more," or "better" Torah - on a time-bomb foundation of insanity. And BTW, this idea is why I first posted on GYE. If I just pass this along to a few of my frustrated fellow yidden, all the late nights posting will be worthwhile!

I respect your opinion should you feel very differently that I do and I know that what works for me will not work for many other people, either. Now, for a good shluff!

Dov I love you man. Your posts are amazing. I need to abandon my life to Hashem. It's completely letting go on all so called control I have on my life and giving it over to Hashem. It scares the hell out of me to think I am not in control. How can I get rid of this poisonous feeling? Also, how can I feel empowered to change if I have declared powerlessness over this addiction? Lichoiyrah the power is Hashems power. So because I am pwerless and will only lose this battle and continue to lose I MUST MUST MUST realize that hashem is the onw who can overcome it for me. He is the one doing everything alll the time. If so than what am I doing. If he controls everything and I control nothing than what the hell is the point of anything?

The point of 'anything' is to try.

To give up the outcomes to Hashem (cuz that's the way it really is) and to try your butt off.
(Don't worry, it won't really fall of...but just in case it does, let me know, OK?)

Dov, thank you.  I needed that

jewinpain wrote on 11 Jun 2010 12:37:


Look, dear friend, you don't want to fall. I know you don't.
I know this even though I'm thinking about the same thing myself.
But you've got to go back and read your own early posts. (and my recent thread, where I've asked the same questions.)
Don't you see changes? Don't  you see more simcha on some level? Don't you see more hope?

I'm not trying to say that things are all fixed. If that was your expectation, then yes it's all been a failure. But if you can see that you are seeing things more clearly, that you see some different pathways available for the future, that you see you're not alone... then you see that your time here has been valuable.

And I'm not saying valuable only about hanging out with the rest of us bozos on this bus. I mean valuable about getting to see that you're not a hopeless case, your situation is not a hopeless situation, and that a 'genuine' marriage with your wife is ... just maybe... a possibility.

They tell me that if we throw this all away for even a day, we've lost something big. (I'm not sure about that, but these folks seem to be right about an awful lot!) So hold onto it (that thought, not that ) and keep moving. You've done amazing in having, what, a 4-month clean streak? Keep going a little longer and see what happens.

And just maybe, every time you feel like doing something destructive (like this?) to yourself, you force yourself to do something NICE to your WIFE instead. This sounds like it has nothing to do with whether you choose to fall or not, but there MIGHT be a connection (yay'oosh?).

Good Shabbos. We love you, man. PM if you like.

Sometimes when I have felt like things are just not good enough for me (or really suck - often the same, though) and the thought of "why bother staying sober?" popped into my mind, the answer I used was:

"What the hell. I'll stay sober even though it's stupid. I've done stupid things before"

...and I chose to not act out and instead connect up with buddies or whatever it is that I was supposed to be accomplishing. Soon, I either forgot about the problem, came to see that it wasn't a real problem in the first place, or that the itch came from a deep desire I had to run like hell away from real life.

In sobriety, I found that real life actually gets better miraculously, when I stop running away from it and work on it with trust that He'll work something good out of it eventually. But I do not envy you nor look down on you, friend, as I know your pekk'l is a heavy one, so may G-d bless you with hatzlocha regardless of what you do. 

dov wrote on 11 Jun 2010 15:15:

Yep, I'm maskim. Totally. Funny, I was just chatting with a buddy about a similar thought, but with one addition that for me seemed important.

Not only do I need to daven to Hashem for constant "undeserved" (chinam, v'eschanan) favors. I also need to "promise" Him that if he chooses little ole' ME to send them to (rather than other Yidden who forget even to ASK Him), then...

... I PROMISE MY BEST TO USE THOSE GIFTS TO FULFILL STUFF THAT HE (HASHEM) WILL LIKE. (That's in ADDITION to using them to be happy myself, which is one of the things I know He wants by the way....)

It's kinda like when I'm standing on top of five pushkas with one coin - I wanna find the one that I think offers the most "bang per buck." I want His selection to include ME. So the issue becomes, will I _really_ use His favors to do what _He_ wants, as best as I can tell. (Or at least, try to....)

jewinpain wrote on 11 Jun 2010 16:56:

Wow. May it be clean and holy and fun and worthwhile. For you AND the missus and kids.

I am falling! I fell this morning and want to fall again!

CA

Get off the floor

Say loud

FELL SHMELL

And keep on trucking


Right where u were



I said get off the floor

NOW!!!

No last looks. No last click. No anyhow down here. N no no


Good boy

Grab the wheel and KOT

B

I couldn't do it! I fell...again! and i am getting behind on work at the same time! I am starting work now and i am majorly depressed but none of it helps!

Ha!!!

That is the MO of the YH

He doesn't care about the chet. All he wants is the depression.

B

we can't give up now! look what we've accomplished,look where we're going,we're fixing ourselves,we're fixing the world.
we are in charge! we have the power to control ourselves! we can make it!

i need help.i need to talk to someone. r u there?