dov wrote on 18 Mar 2010 01:33:


Dear Dov,

I appreciate what you are saying here and in your daily Doses. Really.

I do not think that most of us would be here at this site if we did not care about the issur. Not everyone is as affected by this addiction as you were. However, it is absolutely necessary for all to know what can come in the future if the addiction is not nipped earlier. I thank you for sharing your experiences.

This issue is probably very debatable, but I think that what I am saying here is important.
It's after 3:00 am, so will sign out. I welcome any response. (Not that I have very much of a choice
, as this is a forum.)

On some level I came here because it was assur but I speak lashon harah don't always come on time to davening and do many other assur things. I don't make the same effort to change those  things as the effort  I  make for recovery. I came here because my life was out of control and I could not go on life that. I now enjoy not having the emotional pain of being drawn toward all that garbage and not being bound to the web all night.

So yes it is assur but I (and maybe others also) do many other assur things and I (we) don't try as hard with the other things.

Chazak wrote on 21 Mar 2010 10:35:


Dear Chazak,

Its nice to hear that you like the "daily doses"! I generally do not read them and don't get the chizzuk email, so it's good to know that somebody thinks Reb Guard is doing a good job!

It is so valuable to me to hear what you have to say. It seems to me that it is easy for any person to recede into an "ivory tower" of sorts once the philosophy and debate begins to flow out, especially in my own case. Hashem yatsileinu! Regular attendance at meetings helps me get out of my own head and gain some perspective on things, particularly if we are leading with our own weaknesses rather than whining or showing off.
So, please keep sharing - you obviously share from your heart and that always helps somebody.

The reason that I hang on to the idea that the Problem is not a primarily a religious one is partially because that was my experience - so I accept that yours may be very different.

But that's not the only reason. I have also seen so many people prefer to slog through this mess and (unecessarily) drag their poor families through it as well, all "for the sake of Hashem". Please bear with me. I do not doubt their holiness and the purity of their intentions, as I made the same mistake for years and remember it all too well. I have come to believe that the overwhelming majority of sweet, frum yidden who do have what you might call the "full-blown addiction" to lust, spend precious years or decades struggling with it painfully, as though they were normal. As though they just need to get "good" enough, and they'll stop! They desperately and innocently apply a chulent of basic Torah concepts, pop-psychology, and mussar to their mental illness, physical allergy, and spiritual problem called 'Addiction'. As a result, many develop deep emunah problems after years of falling flat on their faces. We go on hiding our shame ever more deeply, and eventually even drag our wives, children, and sometimes even our community, through absolute gehinnom.

Based on this, there is no question in my own mind that the normal rules and attitudes of shmiras haBris, sexuality and tzniyus do not do them much use. I applied them to my struggle - and so did most of the well-meaning rebbis and psychologisits that I saw over the years. It didn't work and only gave me more pain to cover up and run from. I got worse as I got more medakdeik in mitzvos and more active in kiruv - of others.

Who knew there was another, simple option? It all seemed so complex.

When I began accepting the attitudes in "AA": I got sober, my life began to mend and my connection with Hashem became much more relevant and real to me. My yiddishkeit then slowly began to get repaired, and with it, my relations with others began to become more fun and bear fruit. Though I am no tzaddik, the way I learn and keep mitzvos connects me to the Torah that I always knew, better than ever before. Something was missing before sobriety, while I was still engaging in fantasy and sex-with-self (M*). True Bechirah has been increasing in my life, ever since.

So, even though I agree with you that religious considerations brought the overwhelming majority of us here to GYE, I prefer to believe that some of us know in our hearts that we cannot dress our struggle in the chaluka d'rabonnon forever. Something is destroying our lives, and we can't seem to disloge it. One day I finally admitted to myself that were I to c"v give in to all my desires completely - I still would not find freedom. It would only destroy. It was all taking, no giving, left no room for anyone else's life in mine. I came to see that the lust I had would make living any kind of happy life completely impossible. No more could I lie to myself that "I was a failure only as a Jew - but would be fine as a goy". First of all, I could not "be" a goy, and second, I'd destroy my life as a goy, too! I have met many yidden who harbored deep resentment to yiddishkeit over "trapping" them in this bind "cuz what I want to do is ossur, damn it"! They may not speak this out, but the finger-pointing and the pain is secretly there. Is this what Hashem wants?

What a relief when they discover that their problem was never yiddishkeit, at all! It was always and only: themselves! Hashem is "off the hook!" 

You may disagree completely - hey, like you said, it's a forum! But that's how I see it. Not everybody fits this picture, to be sure. But to those who see they fail on a fairly regular basis, break resolution after resolution, and progress in their dirty mishega'as over time, I suggest to consider that they may be addicts. If one is an addict, I suggest considering the 12 steps. And I couldn't do it myself - not enough honesty that way, I guess.

[/quote]
Dear R' Dov,

I thought you write the daily Doses!!!

Look, I did not read your reply yet completely, as I want to read it when I can concentrate more.

However, I really feel that it would be the proper kavonoh to consider whatever steps one takes as a mitzvoh.
So your life is greatly improved? Mazel tov! "Drochehoh darchei noam". Doing the steps is part of that.
It is not "religous" versus ANYTHING. "Bchol drochechoh daeiHu".

One more thing which I have doubts whether I should say here, true or not. I feel that one of if not the main advantage of the 12 Steps is that it relieves the guilt, which can be exremely detrimental.

Thanks for the insightful reply.

Holy Yid wrote on 21 Mar 2010 20:30:

This one takes more effort or at least it would seem to .

i just fell.
I am such an a**hole

zalmandovid wrote on 22 Mar 2010 22:01:


Ummmmm no youre not.......

I think this thread is more for people about to fall. You belong on this thread:

rehab-my-site.com/guardureyes/forum/index.php?topic=1065.735

You know where you can reach me.

-Yiddle

zalmandovid wrote on 22 Mar 2010 22:01:


Gevalt. How do you know what you are? You don't even know how to stay clean, and yet you say you understand yourself well enough to determine exactly what kind of a hole you are?! I'm still not exactly sure what kind of hole I am, but I know what to do to stay sober. 

OK, ok...on a more serious and sensible level, please consider cutting yourself a break. No, not to screw up even more, of course, but to admit the truth about yourself and see your situation for what it really is. Doing that helps most of us accept what we really need to do about it.

Getting depressed about it? Why do that? It'd just be a cop-out! Depression leads to nothing but more acting out. Self-pity is nothing but an excuse, in the end, not a healthy surrender. AA says: "Poor me, poor me, Pour me a drink!" (gotta say it to really make it sound right...)

Rather, let yourself take a step back and look at this addict trying to get well. (You are the one who decided you are an addict, not me.) He's a really nice fellow, and trying as much as the next guy to be a good yid. You've got a lot of good and youv'e got some troubles, too. Learn something from your frailty and move on to better things! Use us, 12-step fellowships, or whatever tools you think are worth a try - to get better! It is horrible that we need to fail at kedushas haBris so much, but if I am an addict it needs to get proved to me for me to ever get better. The clearer the truth of my inability to win on my own becomes to me, the better my chances that I'll take a firm hold of Recovery. And that's a gift! So, in a certain respect you are very lucky, in hindsight...

We fellows are in a load of trouble. Hearing the "Uh oh!" loud and clear is not bad at all - it's a giant bracha. My wife occasionally reminds me that the day I got sober is a more choshuv date to her than the day we got married. Now, that day was the last day I acted out, too! Acting out made it impossible for me to run away from the truth about myself! And as long as I remember the truth about myself in sobriety, I believe Hashem will keep helping me stay sober.

You are a lucky man, ZD.

Better than calling yourself names, every time you feel that little meatgrinder inside calling you some type of orifice, substitute the word "addict". 

This dov is so classic it needs no bards to explain!!

Oh you wanna know what he said!!??

He said keep on trucking (sort of)

Dov you're inspiration: I finally feel smart: I understood a Dov-Post after only  :o one try, ONE......................!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ;D

KOT

I say do both...

Hu????

Yes, for the part of you that needs sympathy... (we all have that part, or at least I do :-[): Give it what it wants (we can all use a Mommy :-\)

For the part of you that wants to move forward (and we all have that too....): Give it all you've got. Jump right in and do whats gotta get done...

Make any sense?

I am currently in a hotel room my self...

I don't think I'm going to last long...

I unplugged and turned around the TV and told myself I wont act out till I contact GYE here I am...

Dear Sweet Yid ham'chuneh b'shem: Tried-123,

Good morning to you, my friend! May Hashem help you have a useful and nice day today with liberal assistance from your friends. Keep on moving right along, skip the $200 for now, but do not go to jail, either.

Ended up seeing some utterly nauseating things...
Prn really is disgusting (or at least what I was exposed to...)
eww uch

I turned it off after like 2 min.
So I hope to have a decent day (whatever that means...)

Peace to you all....

Tried123 ....

I love your absolute honesty and bluntness in your comments. i always seem to get a good laugh from whatever you have to say. (your pic on the side makes you that much funnier).

2 minutes is an awesome pull out time!! considering that you were probably locked up in chains and a stray jacket, upsidown and underwater - getting out in 2 minutes is really really awesome!!

you should feel r eally great about yourself right about now! :-*

looking forward to your next post.......... keep up my inspiration ;D :D