Eye.nonymous wrote on 04 Aug 2011 13:35:


The Rambam in הלכות יסודי התורה פרק ג
states:

כל הגלגלים, אינם לא קלים ולא כבדים.  ואין להם לא עין אדום ולא עין שחור ולא שאר עיינות; וזה שאנו רואין אותן כעין התכלת, למראית העין בלבד הוא, לפי גובה האוויר.  וכן אין להם לא טעם ולא ריח, לפי שאין אלו המאורעים מצויים אלא בגופות שלמטה מהם.


As translated by Rabbis Carol Glass and Susan Berman

The subject of round jellybeans, is not simple but also not hard.  We don't favor red ones or black ones.  This that some people say they like blue ones, is just superficiality and puffing.  Jellybeans in general have no real taste and purpose and generally eaten by lower class people.

ur-a-jew wrote on 04 Aug 2011 18:38:


i hope they are not the ones who give the hechsher on the jellybeans, cause they would be a noge'a bidavar and we could not use them for proof

guardureyes wrote on 04 Aug 2011 10:48:


So basically, it's subjective.

The concept of a "subjective disease" has always intrigued me.

YMG wrote on 04 Aug 2011 18:37:


"Alei Schur" was written by Rav Wolbe.

And the quote from the Steipler (and also from Rav Tzadok) was taken from this shiur by Rav Reisman: www.guardureyes.com/GUE/Music/mus/ShiurYesodos.mp3

Listen to the shiur from 11:30 - 16:50 where he talks about how we don't/didn't always have bechirah.

YMG

Check out this write-up about Bechira
http://drsorotzkin.com/bechira.html

Tried-123 wrote on 05 Aug 2011 06:16:


But you don't have to if you don't want to.

I have a lot to say, but since time is very limited today, I'll have to start my though and finish it later...

Personally, I’ve read this all in seforim in the past, and I’m very aware of what’s being hashed out again and again on this topic.

It's true that there are people who indeed have no free-will! This idea even goes way back – much earlier than contemporary mussar. Yet given in context though, this is speaking only about a person who’s a total rasha. See Bereishis Rabba 34:10 and in Tanya chapter 17 for more discussion on this.

Since R’ Eliyahu Dessler’s name has been thrown around a lot here, I’d like to note that even R’ Eliyahu Delser addresses the "powerlessness" idea this same way. See what he says in his Sefer Hazikaron pg. 117 where he talks about these concepts in regard to the “diseased mind and soul” – mentioning this very quote from the Medrash.

Put in perspective: if you are here (or anywhere else dealing with this issue), you’re either one of two types of people:

- A person who struggles with lust and attempts to fight it, only to rise and a fall. A person, who, for periods of time, can abstain – but after a period of time, he’s back in the dumps, falling back into the same pattern. He has some shorter streaks, he also has some longer streaks - but not enough that he’d consider himself to have “broken out of it”. He deals with his urges on a constant basis, and he doesn’t view himself as a person who’s found the tools to successfully master control of his urges. He often acts out, slipping in and out of his negative behavior. But he has his “ups” as well as his “downs”.

- A person who – with Hashem’s help – is successful in not engaging in the act of lusting. He may even have huge streaks of success spanning over several years. Some might even call themselves "addicts in recovery". Whichever tools he’s adopted, he’s found a method proven to work for him, and in the present, he does not act out. Such a tzadik!

In another post I’ll explain more about the rasha, and how this truly powerless individual is a person who doesn’t stop. That he doesn’t even struggle or attempt to put up a fight. A person who gives into every whim – without exception. That he doesn’t have victories or growth in this area, and he’s nothing but defeated. That he's a person hasn’t made even an ounce of improvement.

These things are all sourced in divrei chachmeinu z"l, and essentially - this is the only true kind of powerlessness.

I'll also address why he get punished, and how even he can do teshuva - without contradiction to the Rambam.

But it's late, and it's erev Shabbos...

Have a good Shabbos!

And another comment on that articlen above...

AA's term - "once an addict always an addict" denotes that an addict is and always will be powerless. Even in the words of R' Eliyahu Dessler, it's clear that a person can gain back his free-will though. That would include, that even a complete rasha - who is "powerless" - can do teshuva, and regain his bechira. Also, the posuk tells us, that with teshuva, "G-d forgives all your iniquity, heals all your diseases." (Tehillim 103:3).

AA considers addiction/powerlessness an "incurable disease" though. No recovery/teshuva is ever enough.

That was always something that made me go "hmmm"...

And here are some more comments on that PDF from Carol Glass...

On page 242 of her essay, the author writes: "Employing the technique of Biblical textual parallelism, Rabbi Joseph B. Soloveitchik, a leading Jewish scholar of the twentieth century, has cited the verse "G-d forgives all your iniquity, heals all your disease" (Psalm 103:3) as a proof for the idea that Judaism regards sin as an illness and repentance as the healing cure. "The idea is clear: sin is an abnormal phenomenon," writes Rabbi Soloveitchik. "The healthy person living a normal life, does not fall into the ways of sin. Sin constitutes a sort of spiritual pathology, just as many diseases of the flesh constitute a physical pathology." Along the same lines, Maimonides, a twelfth-century Jewish philosopher, referred to those who stray from the "good path" as cholei n'fashot, that is, "people of sick spirit.""

The Zohar (3 13b and 16a) tells us that sin isn't normal! But saying that "sin is not normal, and therefore it constitutes disease", would imply that any sin - not just lust - constitutes disease. If this "disease" had anything to do with powerlessness - as AA would like to assert, then we're all powerless/addicted to sin. If that's the case, then when does a person ever have free choice when he sins? Everything's just disease! And how could a person ever be held responsible for his sins? Reward and punishment too. What about that?

Personally, I doubt she understood what Rabbi Soloveitchik meant.

Are there any sources for what she's saying anyways?

Carol Glass also writes in her article, "Along the same lines, Maimonides, a twelfth-century Jewish philosopher, referred to those who stray from the "good path" as cholei n'fashot, that is, "people of sick spirit."

The Rambam in Mishna Torah (Hilchois Deos 2:1-2) and in the beginning of Shmone Prokim talks about spiritual disease. It's interesting how this reference in the Rambam is used in correlation with what AA calls an "incurable disease" of addiction and powerlessness. Not only does the disease - according to the Rambam - have nothing at all to do with powerlessness (and instead "insensitivity"), but the Rambam also goes on to describe the cure for the "sick spirit", as well.

Another thing the Rambam tells us, is that if a person is ill with a physical disease he's to go to doctors of medicine to find healing, and if he's ill with a spiritual disease he's to go to the Chachomim to find healing. AA - who calls addiction both a physical and spiritual disease - does neither.

That was another thing that made me go "hmmm"....

A few words from ykv_schwartz, an oldtimer and a great inspiration for many, many people:

The 12 steps are not holy.  Only the Torah is Holy.  The 12 Steps are just techniques, and it would be ludicrous to submit ourselves to every diyuk in the 12 steps (which even the experts cannot agree what some of these things mean) over the enlightenment of the Torah.  The Torah is our life.  The Torah is the world.  To separate our lives from Torah would be committing suicide.  This is not a matter of opinion.  This is not about "what works for me". This is about understanding the world from an objective standpoint.

Every person needs to define his goals and understand what he wants out of recovery.  I do not think a goy can understand kedusha.  This is a commandment for Jews.  For Jews that have sunken into porn and related sins, the essence of the yid has been tampered.  My goal is to become a yid.  How in the world can a goy teach you to become a yid?  My goal is kedusha to the top.  If I do not strive for it, I will not get there.  I will plateau out and fall, c"v.  I need to understand my obligation as a yid.  I need to understand what G-d wants from us as he expressed through his Torah, not based on "well of course g-d would say...".  My Goal is kedusha.  My goal is coming closer and closer to hashem.  I have read 12 steps over and over, and I do know them.  But they in no way describe the relationship with G-d that you will find in Torah . So there are great limitations.

Pearls!

Derech eretz kadma la'Torah. You can't become a Yid before you are human again. The 12-Steps are methods which teach us the basics that he have forgotten. You can't learn Tanya before you know the alef-beis. You can't read Torah if the room is dark, or if your glasses are broken.

Fix your glasses (discover and admit the truth about yourself), turn on the light (realize only Hashem can help you), learn alef-beis (integrity, humility, outward-focus) - and then you will be able to use the Torah to become the true Yid that you can. And then indeed, as Yaakov Shwartz said, the connection you can achieve to Hashem through Torah will be much greater than what you reached through the 12-Steps... But if you start with the Torah while your glasses are broken and the light is off, you won't get anywhere. It's jumping to the top of the ladder before you've climbed the first rungs. An addict is missing the first rungs.

But I think this thread should be discontinued. We feel it is detrimental to post anti-12-step things on this forum because the 12-Step approach does work for many people, and people may become discouraged to try it (and maybe it would have helped them?).

I have no problem though, that people who have tried the 12-Steps and do not "connect" to them or they have not seen success with them should contact you.

I was going through some old notes I had typed up after learning Shaar HaBitochon, and I'm posting them here, hoping they'll be of benefit to others.

- Trusting in Hashem is an essential by which a person can directly measure his devotion to Him.

- When a person trusts in Hashem, not only will he reap in a way benefiting him in the physical sense giving him peace of mind, but also his service to Hashem will improve greatly as well. Additionally, when he serves faithful even when having been put to the test of faith, in return, Hashem will reciprocate by showing His faithfulness and showering him with His kindness in the areas that need attention.

- A person understands that life is intended to have challenges. Even those who have a strong foundation of trust in Hashem, they too will have their trust challenged. There is a purpose in this. Hashem wants to test us to see how much we’re committed to Him. Hashem wants us to succeed!

- Everything physical, he understands, is temporary. Hashem gives and Hashem takes. And Hashem has the ability to give in any which way and through any which channel he wants.

- Included in trusting in Hashem is not leaning on people. People are merely conduits for Hashem’s channel of blessing or chv”s the opposite. Therefore a person should never get angry at another person. As well, if a person made attempts at something for the sake of other people, let him not blame himself that he did not succeed. He’s only responsible for doing his part - the action. Success though, is only in Hashem’s. That’s Hashem’s part!

I actually read through this whole thread ( pretty much) I'm not big into deep philisophy being a way of recovery but it seems that it is helpful to others.

One thing I noticed is that this thread seems to equate teshuva w/ recovery and that according to many is not accurate. I think guard hit on the point when he expressed that our recovery is about relearning that which makes us human. Not about advancing in holiness.

Apart from that- I see few contradictions between the principles that help you YMG, and between the 12 steps. The steps as I understand them are really ALL suggestions. One need not take all of them to take some of them. I personally believe in the 12 step system, but personally have only worked 1-6 or maybe 7 seriously.... And so far its going good. I am interested in implimenting more of them, but as t goes- whatever step is most appropriate and helpful is the one I hope to take. That said- YMG's realization that he can't do anything w/out Hashem sounds strikingly like a good solid step one. Realizing that that G-d of the Torah 'can do anything' sounds like a great step two. We realize that HE can restore us to sanity. If there's part of a step 3 in the conviction you express to do His will I wouldn't be surprised. As regards all the other stuff about anonymity, and admiting your addiction (note Ipersonally do NOT equate acting out with sinning)to others etc... If you choose not to take those steps or need them- it doesn't debunk them in any way. Each person has a path to recovery.

Aside from that, logically speaking MOST addicts who find their wayto recovery do so with a group. That said it doesn't mean that indivudls may not be able to do it through internal resolve, but those ppl are likely built differently than most of us. It is not good to contradict thousands of case studies and wisdom of experience because of the results in ONE instance.meaning, if this works for ymg, gevaldig, but what works for most ppl is a group experience. On that note, I may be wrong, but I think I sense a little bit of conflict in the writing I see regarding depending on ppl and depending on G-d. Life is fluid, that line that we walk between beleving in this world and knowing it is all ain od milvado is a fine one. But a group experience, does not contradict that everything is ein od milvado. Aderaba- Hashem talks to us through all experiences and each person is a conduit of His will in some way (which I beleiev you mention ymg). That's my two shekels on this

Back on Track wrote on 10 Aug 2011 00:55:


BOT, couldn't agree with you more.  As we said in the Haftorah yesterday:  יעזוב רשע דרכו, ואיש אוון מחשבותיו; וישוב אל-יהוה וירחמהו, ואל-אלוהינו כי-ירבה לסלוח

First, you got to stop doing what's wrong and then you can come to וישוב אל-יהוה וירחמהו

As Rabbeinu Yonah in שערי תשובה writes for those of us who are drowning in a sin like the typical addict is, this is the prerequsitie for doing Teshuva.

אך האיש המתיצב על דרך לא טוב תמיד, וגבר על חטאיו דורך בכל יום ושונה באולתו, ושב במרוצתו
גם פעמים רבות, וכל עת אוהב הרע ומכשול עונו ישים נוכח פניו רצה לומר התאוה והיצר, וחפצו ומגמתו, אשר לא יבצר ממנו כל אשר
יזם לעשות. ראשית תשובת האיש הזה, לעזוב דרכו ומחשבתו הרעה ולהסכים לקיים ולקבל עליו לבל יוסיף לחטוא