Let's take it from the top.

Back on Track wrote on 10 Aug 2011 00:55:


It's interesting how you note any deep philosophy here. My recovery also had nothing to do with deep philosophy. But maybe that's just because I never really equated Torah to philosophy. I guess this thread has become a bit of an in depth conversation about some of the basic fundamentals of both the Torah and the 12 Steps, although the point in all this was never to compare the 2 alongside each-other, but rather to describe an approach that's worked for me and fit for all other Yidden too.

With all due respect. You began by sharing your approach which was very nice and will be very helpful for people that 12 steps is not a option for them. So, as long you were positive about your approach it was wonderful and great and a big mitzvah, because 12 steps is not for evryone and some need your way and this is the best thing you could have done.

But, later on you started to question the 12 steps and how well it works with the Torah, you criticzed some areas of the handbook. thaty was in my opinion wrong. A lot olf people here, rely on the 12 steps, and the only way it works for them, is, if they truly believe in it. With you opening questions on it, you are actually killing them and their sobriaty, that was a wrong step. I think this is when Guard stepped in and mentioned about stopping this.

So, please continue to promote your way and stop questioning the other way. Would be nice if you edit delte those posts. Are you ready to take responsibility for peopl that fail due to your questions ?

Sorry, this is my honest opinon, you may disagree.

O frilichen lechtigen shobos. I love you anyway my brother.

shteighecher wrote on 12 Aug 2011 16:46:


Then I kindly ask those people not to read this thread. This thread is for people who are willing to consider putting Torah before their sobriety. And I'm 100 percent certain that anyone who does, won't be at risk of falling like you perhaps believe them to be. We have to stop doubting ourselves and we have to stop doubting koiach haTorah.

If it's my questions that concern you - this is a 2 way street, and people are welcome to address them. This is about offering "Truth" to people, and the only way to really clarify what hashkofas haTorah is and isn't, is to have this discussion.

Just the other day I had a talk with a recovered addict of 45 years. He was in a situation much worse than many of the people here (and not just porn) - as I'd like to share in his story in full detail. Eventually he turned to the Lubavitcher Rebbe for help. They kept in contact for years about this, and the Rebbe guided him away from his past and toward a very rich future. Now he's a very prominent, world famous rosh yeshivah, and a person of huge stature!

I was given the opportunity to read some of his personal letters between him and the Rebbe, and he took this approach.

P.S: who's willing to take responsibility for the many times that I had failed simply because I was trained to think that I was powerless and had no control in this area?

Back on Track wrote on 10 Aug 2011 00:55:


Even according to the Torah sources that do discuss a degree of powerlessness a person may have (as I spoke about in an earlier post), the reason for his powerlessness is because his sins have created a divider between him and G-d – and not because of any explainable physical reason. This is a spiritual malady. Because of his repeated sin – they explain - he’s cut himself off from his source of life, and inside he’s spiritually dead. Plain and simple, that’s the reason why he acts the way he does. It’s because he’s a complete rasha – who’s controlled by his heart (as it says in the Medrash Rabba sourced above).

Therefore, if a person argues that he’s truly powerless – which some of you do, of course – then your first step would not be to “learn derech eretz and how to be 'human'”, but instead to take down the divider separating you and Hashem. Such a person has to deal with his spiritual malady. Till then, he’s still being controlled by his heart, and it’s not shayach for him to make real change as it says in Tanya chapter 17. If he’s made real change, the only possible answer would be that perhaps he wasn’t really powerless/lacking free-will/a complete rasha in the first place.

Derech eretz would be a nice place to start, but here we’re talking about a person who has to do teshuva even before that! See the Tanya I mentioned above.

Another point: teshuva, in the purest sense, means to return to G-d. If your recovery involves reaching out to Hashem, then teshuva is very relevant here! I fail to see why you've split up "recovery through reaching out to Hashem" and "teshuva".

P.S: I have a lot to say on the derech eretz topic, but I'll address that in your other post where you elaborate on that point more.

This is Bli Neder my last post regarding this subject.

You are a lifesaver for some people here. I did communicate with someone who didnt belive in the 12 steps and loved your approach. I still dont see any reason why you should go 'against' 12 steps and 'against' the handbook that saved so many lives. This website has saved hundrads of yiden and you are questioning succesful tools and you are hurting those succesful tools.

Again, this is just my opinion. Please kkep on posting about how succesful your approach is, what you used and how it helped.

If you want me to post again, you will need to open a new thread.

I also want to thank you for the Chizuk you gave me in PM when i needed it the most. Thank you.

O git Shobos.

Ymg, you wrote:

" To me, you come off sounding as if to say that the reason Torah works, is because it's the steps. I don't buy that"

I meant PUNCT FARKERT. The reason the 12 Steps work, is that inherent in the principles are ideas that don't clash with Torah.

Now- IF someone is inserting the wrong G-d, where it says 'the god of our understanding'- THAT could be a problem. If it was a pagan idol higher power- that'd be s/t I'd want to destroy. If it was some form of shituf, there's halachos of that too. Etc...

I think what people mean (its what I mean) when saying- 'torah doesn't work' is that, the classical approach of mussar, halacha, and however they understand the normal Yeshiva mehalech doesn't work.

And yes, for the most part your approach does pretty much seem too encompass the first three steps.

Often, these steps are not enough for addicts- they need to get something off their chest... They need to TALK it out with others and get support from OTHERS. Your sobriety is strongly based on the bain adom lmakom. And if it works for you- by all means that's great. Whether you wanna call it part of 12 steps, 3 steps, Torah... Whatever. It is the focus on the principles that counts.

The 12 steps don't work for veryone, but seem to be the most successfull of all programs. And since, a frum yid CAN use this generic program, it is not right to deter them. But if urs works for you gevaldig.(Though as I said I don't see the conflict).

Ps- I have a good buddy who started pretty much when I did, and the steps just didn't do much for him.... He's now trying hypnosis. I was big into hypnosis before trying the steps, and still maintain it is a good way of dealing with this. I found the same calm in hyp. As in 12steps. Only difference was hypnosis was A:expensive B:although it got me to the point where  I could control myself  I had very little idea of how I got there. And no way for me to build on it on my own. The steps helped me learn HOW to get there on my own THROUGH focusing on various principles of TORAH and EMUNAH which deals with the fundamentals of being a human being that has a relationship with G-d.  But (instead of beatng myself up with 'mussar' alone, doing it) WITH a chevra of others. That's just my take on the steps. If it works 4 s/o else good. If not, maybe they'll have something else. As long as it doesn't CONTRADICT the Torah its fine by me. 

Though I'd like to add, that it seems pretty cleae that e/o on this forum is seeking recovery in a 'torah' way. When ppl negate the 'torah approach on the forum, I think they means as posted above- the classical - keep it 2 urswlf mussar approach.

shteighecher wrote on 12 Aug 2011 16:46:



guardureyes wrote on 09 Aug 2011 13:57: