Can't read the hebrw on my phone. But.. I don't view acting out as 'sin'. Although it IS a sin, I just don't think relating to it as such is helpful in learning how 2 control it. I'm a 12stepyish kinda guy. I believe its about wanting to srrender the insanity 4 sanity. Like guard sed- becoming human.. Or rather becoming a complete human from an emotional, psychological and spiritual stabdpoint.

Hey,

Sorry for being a bit thick but what do you mean when you write that




Just curious, BTW nice thread, I enjoyed reading through it.

Back on Track and ur-a-jew: before directly addressing your individual posts, I would like to address an overall issue here.

AA, in their texts, makes an effort to distinguish between religiosity and spirituality. They argue that we’ve been “religious” in our practice, but void of any soul. “We need spirituality”, they say. That if we’d be more spiritual people – and if we’d connect to G-d with our hearts and not just our hands, that would a stronghold for us to remain sober.

They’re very, very right!

Here the tricky part though: in catering to everyone (including the agnostics, in the chapter called “We Agnostics”), AA then takes the stance that religiousity isn’t that important. The only thing that’s important for an addict in staying sober is that he’s “spiritual”! They then proceed to make an outright separation between “religiousity” and “spirituality”.

Their mantra’s, “I need to feel G-d in my heart, to talk to Him, to involve Him in my life, and to keep a personal relationship with Him”. Becoming religiously committed to Him, practicing His ways, and doing what He wants of me, just isn’t part of this!

It’s no longer “I need to connect to the one true G-d”. Instead it’s “I need to connect to the G-d of my understanding”. In the event that I don’t believe in G-d; provided that I have a Higher Power, that’s alright too. It can be a the Program, the group, or even my sponsor.

They claim they’re not religious – and that is true! There is nothing religious about this, and they didn't start the Program to replace religion - but instead to enliven that which already is! For a Yid, it means that through awakeing his connection to G-d, you can naturally expect of him to become frummer and frummer! It means that he'll connect to Hashem of the Torah, and that Torah will become more meaningful to him! Not the opposite!!

This concept that a person’s “spirituality” can stand independent of his “religiosity”, is a concept founded by Christianity – and leads to very grave errors.

I’ll give you an example of this:

Void of any religiosity, it can be argued that even Hilter y”s could live a spiritual life! But that’s called connecting to G-d!? How could a man who murders millions depict any kind of spiritual connection to G-d when G-d demands of him not to kill!? Plain and simple, he wasn't religious. The application of the Christian faith would be: that as long as he was a faithful Christian, believing in the "savior", then he would be "saved". He didn't have to do anything or stop doing anything, but only to "believe" - and in other words, "to adopt spiritual ways". This point has been used many, many times in famous debates against Christianity.

This too is one of the unfortunate outcomes from separating “religiousity” and “spirituality”. Spirituality no longer has anything to do with Him, and it’s only about us, meaning: on our terms, and only for the sake of what we get out of the relationship (in our case – sobriety). That’s not called a connection to G-d. That’s called connecting with our own egos! A foolish "feel-good" replacement for a real connection with G-d! That's not spiritual!

The only way to connect to G-d is on His terms! And for a Yid, that means, through practicing the Torah!

A Yid can’t put tefillin on “in his heart”. It’s true that it has to be “al levavecha” – that these words must be placed “on your heart”, but that needs to be in practice as well! As Yidden, our connection to G-d can’t just remain in the spiritual realm. Our spirituality is the soul of our mitzvois, but that soul can’t remain without a body – the hands on, religious commitment.

The point in all this isn't just to make us better humans, but also better Yidden.

installed wrote on 11 Aug 2011 06:41:


Hi Installed,

That means, that a person can measure his devotion to Hashem by his ability to put his trust in Him.

And thanks for your feedback!

ymg i here where you are coming from and the danger of substituting feel good religiosity for connection with Hashem is very real and very BAD. But I dont think that the steps are that at all. How about this: (im gonna quote some parts and put my thoughts in CAPS no Yelling intended. it is just to distinguiish between what i wrote and what you did.


This concept that a person’s “spirituality” can stand independent of his “religiosity”, is a concept founded by Christianity – and leads to very grave errors.

MY UNDERSTANDING NAD USE OF THE STEPS IS THAT IT IS NOT A REPLACEMENT FOR PRACTICING HALACHA- IT IS A FIRST STEP IN DERECH RETZ SHE KADMA LTORAH. GETTING TO THE BASICS OF EMUNAH AND CONNECTION. IRRESPECTIVE OF WHAT I KEEP OR DONT KEEP. FOR EXAMPLE- IF I WERE TO HAVE RELATIONS WITH MY WIFE WHILE SHE WAS A NIDAH, IT WOULD BE AN AVAEIRA, AND NO PROGRAM CAN TELL ME OTHERWISE. BUT- A BIG BUT- IT WOULD NOT CONTRADICT MY SOBRIETY. IT MAY MEAN AN AVEIRAWAS DONE, BUT I DIDNT CONRTADICT THE GOAL OF BECOMING MORE HUMAN BY HAVING RELATIONS AND FOCUSING MY SEXUAL ACTIVITY STRICTLY WITH TEH PERSN IT BELONGS WITH. WE CAN ALL AGREE THAT HAVING SEX WITH A NIDAH WHO WAS NOT MY WIFE IS PROBABLY WORSE NO? AND MULTIPLE PARTNERS APART FROM MY WIFE EVEN WORSE THAN THAT. THAT WOULD CONTRADICT M PROGRAM AND FURTHER DEBASE ME.

THE PROGRAM IS NOT A DIVINE PROGRAM AND FAR FROM PERFECT. BUT IT FOCUSES ON CERTAIN ASPECTS OF 'SPIRITUALITY' THAT ARE GENERIC. EVEN NONJEWS SHOULD HAVE FAITH IN G-D. IF IT WERE TO FOCUS ON SHEMIRAS HAMITZVOS OR ADHEERING TO ANY CODE OF RELIGIOUS LAW, IT WOULD BY NATURE FORCE PARTICIPANTS TO BELEIVE- 'YOU MUST BE A MEMBER OF THIS RELIGION TO RECOVER' THIS IS NOT TRUE. AND AS JEWS WE DO NOT BELIEVE THAT EITHER. ACTUALLY AS THE GEMARA IN SANHEDRIN TEACHES, YOU DONT HAVE TO BE A JEW OT GO TO HEAVEN. A RIGHTEUS GENTILE CAN GO THERE ARE WELL. WITHOUT BEING A YID. SO YOU SURELY DONT NEED TO BE A YID TO RECOVER FROM ADDICTION. (WITHOUT THE LOMDUS EXPEREINCE HAS PROVEN THAT FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF RECOVERING ADDICTSWHO FOUND VARIOUS WAYS TO RECOVER.

NOW, IF YOU ARE TURNING TO IDOL WORSHIP TO RECOVER THATS A PROBLEM. I WOULD HAVE A PROBLEM WITH SOMEONE DOING THAT IN THE PROGRAM, BUT NOT MITZAD THE PROGRAM, MITZAD TAHT IM A YID. WOULD THE PERSON RECOVER? AND STOP ACING OUT? I DONT KNOW. DOES THAT MEAN THAT THE 12 STEP PROGRAM IS INHERENTLY CONDONING IDOL WORSHIP? I DONT THINK SO. IT IS MORE A SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE KIND OF ISSUE. IT CANT LOCK ANYONE INTO ANY SPECIFIC RELIGIOUS BELIEF BECAUSE IT WOULD THEN (AS SAID ABVE) BE SAYING THAT TO RECOVER YOU MUST BECOME __INSERT ANY____ RELIGION. AT THE SAME TIME, SEPARATION OF HURCH ND STATE HAS BENEFITED TEH TORAH JEW LIKE NO OTHER SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT EVER DID AND OUR GEDOLIM HAVE SHOWN US TIME AND AGAIN THAT WE SHOULD HAVE HAKARAS HATOV THAT WE WERE BORN IN SUCH A SYSTEM.


I’ll give you an example of this:

Void of any religiosity, it can be argued that even Hilter y”s could live a spiritual life! But that’s called connecting to G-d!? How could a man who murders millions depict any kind of spiritual connection to G-d when G-d demands of him not to kill!? Plain and simple, he wasn't religious. The application of the Christian faith would be: that as long as he was a faithful Christian, believing in the "savior", then he would be "saved". He didn't have to do anything or stop doing anything, but only to "believe" - and in other words, "to adopt spiritual ways". This point has been used many, many times in famous debates against Christianity.

THATS CHRISTIANITY- THE PROGRAM, WHILE IT MAY BE PRACTICED BY CHRISTIANS WITH A CHRISTIAN OUTLOOK, DOES NOT IN AND OF ITSELF ENDORSE CHRISTIANITY. IT ENORSES THE BASIC BEELIF THAT ONE MUST TURN TO G-D TO RECOVER FROM ADDICTION. THAT SAID, THERE WERE MANY RESHAIM WHO CHAZAL TEACH OF WHO TURNED TO HASHEM, OR OTHERS CRIED ON THEIR BEHALF (THINK ABOUT THE REAASON WHY WE BLOW 100 SHOOFAR BLASTS ON ROSH HASHANA)

This too is one of the unfortunate outcomes from separating “religiousity” and “spirituality”. Spirituality no longer has anything to do with Him, and it’s only about us, meaning: on our terms, and only for the sake of what we get out of the relationship (in our case – sobriety). That’s not called a connection to G-d. That’s called connecting with our own egos! A foolish "feel-good" replacement for a real connection with G-d! That's not spiritual!

HUMBLY DISAGREE- ITS NOT A REPLACEMENT- AS ABOVE, IT IS A FIRST STEP IN THE CONNECTION. COMMENTARIES FROM THE RAMBAN ON CHUMASH TO ALEI SHUR ALSO DISCUSSES THE BASIC FACTS OF EMUNAH THAT ARE THAT EVEN IF ONE DOES NOT PRACTICE, THERE IS A SIMPLE VALUE IN FAITH. ONE MAY PERVERT THIS, AND UTILIZE IT AS A RATIONALIZATION TO FREE HIMSELF OF THE OBLIGATION RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE. BUT THAT IS A PERVERSION. NOT THE METZIYUS. THINK ABOUT IT, A FATHER HAS A CHILD HWO DOESNT LISTEN TO HIM (IE LACKS RELIGIOUS OBSERVANCE) .... THE CHILD GETS HURT AND STUMBLES...(IE ACTS OUT IN ADDICTION) DOES TEH FATHER NOT FEEL FOR HIS CHILD WHEN HE HEARS TEH CRIES, AND WANT TO HELP HIM? OF COURSE HE DOES. 

The only way to connect to G-d is on His terms! And for a Yid, that means, through practicing the Torah!-

100 PERCENT. YOU ARE NOT MAXIMIZING YOUR CONNECTION TO G-D IF YOU DONT KEEP HALACHA. BUT BARUCH HASHEM SHELO ASANI GOY. WE HAVE AN INHERENT VALUE REGARDLESS OF WHAT LEVEL OF OBSERVANCE WE EXHIBIT. HASHEM VALUES EMUNAH EVEN WITHOUT MITZVOS FOR WHAT IT IS... EMUNAH.. NOT MORE NOT LESS. BUT IT HAS AN INTRINSICC VALUE

A Yid can’t put tefillin on “in his heart”. It’s true that it has to be “al levavecha” – that these words must be placed “on your heart”, but that needs to be in practice as well! As Yidden, our connection to G-d can’t just remain in the spiritual realm. Our spirituality is the soul of our mitzvois, but that soul can’t remain without a body – the hands on, religious commitment.

The point in all this isn't just to make us better humans, but also better Yidden.

'POINT IN ALL THIS'- THE PIONT IN THE PROGRAM IS TO MAKE US BETTER HUMANS. DERECH ERETZ KADMA LTORAH. THE POINT IN YIDDISHKIET IS BE BETTER YIDIN.


Ok if that wasnt long winded enough- if you read it all thanks for readong... if this is all you read well then thanks for readong that too. note: my impression of the 12 steps and how i use it, is just that, my impression. but i really enjoy the opportunity to flesh out teh hashkafa of how we should relte as frum yiddin to teh steps.

:o yoish these arguments are sooooooooooooo 2009  :

well some arguments i have are going on well longer than that... and probably will continue azoi for quite some time. but tehse aint arguments. i think this hashkafisizing is very good for me sometimes. (not that i sometimes think their good for me... note the chiluk. at times teh h-sizing is good and at times its not. but its depends on the position of the moon, jupiter and what flavor woodford sushi icecream is being served in bardy's tavern. )

bardichev wrote on 11 Aug 2011 21:15:


This discussion (not argument) is about clarifying hashkofas haTorah and I appreciate Back on Track's taking the time to write out his long and thorough post.

Please don't belittle that!

If you don't appreciate these posts, you're welcome not to read them.

Woodford, is also 2009, together with pink gevaldiks, tricycles and trucks.  :

Now it's "Yalili!". 2011...  :

YMG wrote on 11 Aug 2011 22:45:

Hashkafos hatorah ? I thought it was hashkofas ha12 steps. So what does the Torah say about addiction?  Please do tell me.
I do agree with you that we are now the yalilli pomegranate generation which you summed up so nicely before: “religious” in our practice, but void of any soul.

nice great topic Yalilli very intelligent song :D thank you

I look at this thread as discussing how to intergrate the steps WITH torah

yalili im in

oy vayyy
yala yala yalili

I don't get something, what/who is
?

Am I missing something?

Google my friend -goooooooogle it.

Oy, what would we do without Google. Funny but I thought it was GYE lingo. 726,332 views and I never heard of it?! Anyway, yeah I hear...