Read once, then minimize to save screen space.

Forum Overview

Post on the forum to get support, tell your story and reach out for help when feeling weak!

You will never be alone in this struggle again.

The GYE forum is anonymous platform of group support, and a life-line of chizuk for hundreds of people in exactly your situation. 

To use the forum you need to first become a member of the site, sign up here.

After signing up to the site, go to the forum, enter one of our boards and press "New Topic" to begin posting! 

Welcome, Guest

The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:)
(0 viewing) 
Scientific studies show that it takes 90 days to break an addictive pattern in the mind. Start your own Log of your journey to 90 days! Post here to update us on your status and to give each other chizuk to stay strong!

TOPIC: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 47462 Views

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 27 Feb 2017 23:35 #306986

  • Dov
  • OFFLINE
  • Administrator
  • Baby-steps; Easy does it.
  • Posts: 1915
  • Karma: 332

HakolHevel wrote above:

@Dov yes you did respond to the question. I guess the follow up would be1) How does one define an addict vs a regular struggle.
2) I would agree that real friends are better, and most addicts need that, but I'm sure there are some that don't?

3) what's the g file and s file



1) In a very basic way, an addict being powerless means that he or she is unable to really enjoy a little of a drug without eventually having to go farther with it than he really wants to. The drug or the behaviors he engages in must be troubling him enough for him to feel that he cannot continue to live this way, but still does, even though he tries things like GYE, therapy, yiddishkeit, getting married - and even masturbating himself to 'get over it already' - yet still continues to use the drug again or ends up living in a way that he finds repugnant in order to fight it.

Typically addicts find that over time they get worse: progression. Though getting worse may be misunderstood by the addict him or herself because we tell ourselves that "The fact that I do xyz less often means I'm getting better!" - while the desperation may actually have increased, or the behaviors around xyz and become more risky and the lies we conjure to cover our tracks become more extreme. Addicts also find they experience withdrawal without the drug, which in a religious person might be covered up using ecstatic Teshuva feelings that are amazing - but actually lead to acting lust out again even worse (see a post called "The Nuclear Reset Button" for more on that, if you like).

2) Gevalt, chaver, why do you say that addicts need real friends but normals do not? How do you know that you - I always assume you are normal - are just too ashamed of yourself and your behaviors to do what is good for you? Besides, R' Elimelech of Lizhensk was certainly not talking to addicts when he wrote in #13 of his famous Tzet'l Kotton to speak to a real live friend, davka being completely open with him, and "V'al tchached shum dovor mipnei habusha." Could you possibly think that when o chavrusa o misusa was said it meant virtual friends? 

Jeff Foxworthy tells a great joke, "You might be a redneck if you've ever proposed for marriage from a payphone." Do you get that? Or do you figure that virtual is 'basically the same as real'. Everyone knows there is a huge difference here - and that is precisely why you and others avoid it.

Finally, (and worstly) there is surely a reason that phone sex does not constitute a kosher kiddushin. (admit that was funny)

The issue with being real and in person is not just an embarrassment issue. It's far deeper. Please read a post called "The Captain Kirk Moment" about this. GYE is great for a start - but the only thing I am really sharing with anyone here is the bad stuff about myself...that is half the story and gives little context to the bad stuff, hence little meaning so it remains tolerable. But if people - the one or two safe people you agreed to meet in person to come clean and start being honest - saw you and knew you and your life circumstances and reality, then the meaning of all that "zera levatolo and schmutz I saw again" is completely different! And we all know that that would really be 'forcing'  the two "you's" into the same room - the room being the clarity in the other person's mind. And that's what everyone wants to avoid. Not what we do, but the context of it that gives the true reality of it, is the core of the shame.

And addicts who have really hit bottom, overcome that shame with their pain and therefore get together with other real addicts face to face to get sobriety. We have no choice. This is what Chaza"l mean when they say "Hashem sent us allthe meviim and nevios to exhort Klal Yisroel -- and it all failed until Achashveirosh handed his ring over to Homon!"

True pain, real pain, is the only teacher, not all the Torah and neviim in the world. The Chaza"l is not saying Haman is better than Torah! And this Chaza"l is the simple answer to people who say "How can 12 steps work better than Torah, chas veSholom?!" Umm...Chaza"l believe that Haman apparently works better than all the neviim (including Moshe Rabbeinu, btw). Pain is the great teacher. The addict - and the non-addict - sho is not yet willing to do whetever it really takes to get better and still has 'standards', just has not suffered enough yet, that's all.

3) S file in my phone is for guys who are SA members (a worldwide 12 step lust recovery group) and the G file is for the contacts I have who are strictly GYE members. I am proud of the ones who are GYE friends I have who are not addicts and do not move to recovery like SA, for example - but many do choose to make that move and when it happens, I switch their first letter to keep 'em straight, that's all. So far it's dozens in both categories.

SA and 12 steps is certainly not for everyone and not even for every addict. But I just share and keep things as clear as i am able be"H to anyone who wants to hear about it and consider it. Not a giant deal, really. Love is the main thing that's needed, not much more. 
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"
Last Edit: 27 Feb 2017 23:38 by Dov.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 28 Feb 2017 08:11 #307025

  • Singularity
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • To write, or not to write?
  • Posts: 1312
  • Karma: 66

3) what's the g file and s file


the g file is the seventh column on a chessboard. The s file is for guys who play really long games of chess .
"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his sobriety level?"
"... It's over NINE-ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

One day... At A Time :-D


Introduce Yourself and get a free karma point from yours truley!
My Thread

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 05 Mar 2017 05:40 #307425

  • Hakolhevel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 239
  • Karma: 22
I love the chess analogy

@ Dov - Ok I get it, I read the captin kirk - which was pretty insightful, and the nuclear button which requires more time to think over that one.

I would like to pose the following pitfall, if one says I'll open up to a friend and that is the magic button, I'm sure that won't help either. I can well imagine two addicts getting together, both being real and discussing their problems, being fully open to each other, and that's it! So now two people know the two captin kirks, what part of that process makes the two captins meet? If you are discussing with someone else who also suffers so they say, oh you did that, I know it's terrible! I do it too. Many years ago I did tell a friend of mine in Yeshivah (of course not being fully honest - I told him it was a past problem - and he said the same about himself) and all he did was concede, yes I don't know why we like looking at naked women, it makes no sense...    So I didn't continued with it.

I'm sure your going to tell me a) make sure you get a good friend and b) you won't understand it till you try it. But before that, please go into more depth as too how a true friend truly helps - so that if I go for it I will go into it the right way, not just looking for the magic banana.

TY

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 05 Mar 2017 06:11 #307429

  • Hashem Help Me
  • Current streak: 1009 days
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1851
Being completely open and honest with a friend accomplishes a number of things. Firstly, when you hear yourself speaking out the details you find yourself being honest with yourself to a much deeper level than before. Secondly, the knowledge that you will continue reporting to this friend will give you the encouragement to start dealing with the issues. Thirdly, once you have opened to a friend it will be that much easier to open to a sponsor - someone who has experienced recovery and can assist you in your journey to recovery.  In my own experience, the first few times that I shared, I felt I was unloading tons of weight off my back - it was a release and a relief. I speak almost every day to someone who is bh in recovery for a long time - he guides me, is mechazek me - I know he is there for me. I also speak to Dov from time to time. Try it. Hatzlocha!
Feel free to contact me at michelgelner@gmail.com

My threads: Lessons Learned: guardyoureyes.com/forum/20-Important-Threads/335248-Lessons-Learned

                    My Story and G-d Bless GYE: guardyoureyes.com/forum/17-Balei-Battims-Forum/303036-My-story-and-G-d-bless-GYE

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 06 Mar 2017 08:38 #307554

  • Singularity
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • To write, or not to write?
  • Posts: 1312
  • Karma: 66
Hakolhevel wrote on 05 Mar 2017 05:40:
I love the chess analogy

@ Dov - Ok I get it, I read the captin kirk - which was pretty insightful, and the nuclear button which requires more time to think over that one.

I would like to pose the following pitfall, if one says I'll open up to a friend and that is the magic button, I'm sure that won't help either. I can well imagine two addicts getting together, both being real and discussing their problems, being fully open to each other, and that's it! So now two people know the two captin kirks, what part of that process makes the two captins meet? If you are discussing with someone else who also suffers so they say, oh you did that, I know it's terrible! I do it too. Many years ago I did tell a friend of mine in Yeshivah (of course not being fully honest - I told him it was a past problem - and he said the same about himself) and all he did was concede, yes I don't know why we like looking at naked women, it makes no sense...    So I didn't continued with it.

I'm sure your going to tell me a) make sure you get a good friend and b) you won't understand it till you try it. But before that, please go into more depth as too how a true friend truly helps - so that if I go for it I will go into it the right way, not just looking for the magic banana.

TY

Maybe to realise there's no magic banana. Even with a support group, you've gotta work. WORK the steps. WORK your mind. WORK the triggers. It's about popping that bubble of self-obsession at the end of the day.
"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his sobriety level?"
"... It's over NINE-ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

One day... At A Time :-D


Introduce Yourself and get a free karma point from yours truley!
My Thread

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 08 Mar 2017 05:31 #307762

  • Hakolhevel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 239
  • Karma: 22
Singularity wrote on 06 Mar 2017 08:38:



Maybe to realise there's no magic banana. Even with a support group, you've gotta work. WORK the steps. WORK your mind. WORK the triggers. It's about popping that bubble of self-obsession at the end of the day.

I guess a lot of us coming here are looking for the magic banana, and so if we hear about - oh yah open up to a friend that's the real way, but we are not actually ready to work - It won't work. It is probably connected to the self obsession. Being completely self- obsessed means I believe that there is nothing wrong with me, I could stop if I want - or if I took the magic pill. Saying I need to work really hard - and do things that are uncomfortable for me (like open up to a friend) - is tantamount to saying, hey there really is something wrong with me - or in other words, I really need help, and not the way I ( the big ego) want it.

Comments - Questions - Arguments Please go ahead! 

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 08 Mar 2017 05:48 #307765

  • Hashem Help Me
  • Current streak: 1009 days
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1851
It's very understandable why most people's initial reaction is not to open up to someone. However if you hang around here long enough and see what has worked for various people here it's almost universal that a major part of their success and recovery is from opening up to the appropriate people. Pick someone good and jump in - the water may be cold, but it's very refreshing - and the lifeguards do a great job.
Feel free to contact me at michelgelner@gmail.com

My threads: Lessons Learned: guardyoureyes.com/forum/20-Important-Threads/335248-Lessons-Learned

                    My Story and G-d Bless GYE: guardyoureyes.com/forum/17-Balei-Battims-Forum/303036-My-story-and-G-d-bless-GYE

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 08 Mar 2017 07:25 #307767

  • Singularity
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • To write, or not to write?
  • Posts: 1312
  • Karma: 66
Hakolhevel wrote on 08 Mar 2017 05:31:

Singularity wrote on 06 Mar 2017 08:38:



Maybe to realise there's no magic banana. Even with a support group, you've gotta work. WORK the steps. WORK your mind. WORK the triggers. It's about popping that bubble of self-obsession at the end of the day.


I guess a lot of us coming here are looking for the magic banana, and so if we hear about - oh yah open up to a friend that's the real way, but we are not actually ready to work - It won't work. It is probably connected to the self obsession. Being completely self- obsessed means I believe that there is nothing wrong with me, I could stop if I want - or if I took the magic pill. Saying I need to work really hard - and do things that are uncomfortable for me (like open up to a friend) - is tantamount to saying, hey there really is something wrong with me - or in other words, I really need help, and not the way I ( the big ego) want it.

Comments - Questions - Arguments Please go ahead! 

True. You gotta want to change. But why? Porn is so much fun. And it feels good. What else is there? 

It's a hard question to answer. But such is the virtue of free will.
"Vegeta, what does the scouter say about his sobriety level?"
"... It's over NINE-ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

One day... At A Time :-D


Introduce Yourself and get a free karma point from yours truley!
My Thread

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 10 Mar 2017 05:53 #307972

  • Hakolhevel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 239
  • Karma: 22
Singularity wrote on 08 Mar 2017 07:25:
True. You gotta want to change. But why? Porn is so much fun. And it feels good. What else is there? 

It's a hard question to answer. But such is the virtue of free will.

Great Question!

Well I can tell you what is not the answer

The answer is not because I feel terrible afterwards. The answer is not because I feel guilty for betraying Hashem and my wife. The answer is not because it doesn't feel good anyway (the more you go after it the harder it is to find satisfaction in it). The answer is not because I feel like a hypocrite when I do it. The answer is not because I know it's wrong. The answer is not because I feel terrible I might die someday with this terrible secret.

So what truly is the answer, I want to change but why? All those things I mentioned above never helped (in the long run) in the past, why should this time be different??????????????????????????????????
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 10 Mar 2017 06:05 #307973

  • cordnoy
  • Current streak: 147 days
  • NOW ONLINE
  • Moderator
  • I'm sailin', for I've got to be free
  • Posts: 11236
  • Karma: 516
Hakolhevel wrote on 10 Mar 2017 05:53:

Singularity wrote on 08 Mar 2017 07:25:
True. You gotta want to change. But why? Porn is so much fun. And it feels good. What else is there? 

It's a hard question to answer. But such is the virtue of free will.

Great Question!

Well I can tell you what is not the answer

The answer is not because I feel terrible afterwards. The answer is not because I feel guilty for betraying Hashem and my wife. The answer is not because it doesn't feel good anyway (the more you go after it the harder it is to find satisfaction in it). The answer is not because I feel like a hypocrite when I do it. The answer is not because I know it's wrong. The answer is not because I feel terrible I might die someday with this terrible secret.

So what truly is the answer, I want to change but why? All those things I mentioned above never helped (in the long run) in the past, why should this time be different??????????????????????????????????
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

At least you're not foolin' yourself; that is a huge step forward.

Halevay oif unz gezugt!
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 10 Mar 2017 12:55 #307989

When you're in the sewer you can't smell the stench! 
I loved that phrase... the mashal is a guy is passing a waste management worker sitting over an open septic tank eating his lunch!! Hayitochain?? so putrid how in the world can he eat food here I can barely stop myself from puking from this stench... 
the answer is... the worker cant even smell it!!

I find this to be so true for me.... when it comes to goyish music[not the soft stuff ich.. more like rock etc..]..... come ellul I turn it off because i know its wrong ....though i dont FEEL its wrong... and inevitably sometime around chanuka i relapse... work has me stressed or i need to energize myself to go exercise and im flat...the first few times i feel terrible... the music feels foreign and tamai ....and I feel the effects... i know its damaging me... but give it a few days and weeks and i am convinced nothing is wrong ... what harm is it doing... i go back to not smelling the stench?!!

I dont think its a far stretch to say tayva is the same way... when were seeped in it... and especially in the velt we live in where the oilam is mamaesh not machshiv it as being wrong at all.... it is so hard... we are all in that sewer eating that tuna sandwhich..... how do we get out is the challenge ....but once we are there and we look at the tipshim sitting, feet dangling in the manhole cover, eating their lunch... our stomachs will once again cringe as the kedusha in us shines and rejects such tumah!!

Satisfying answer?? not at all.....because that doesnt feed the motivation ... "leave me alone ... fine im in a sewer but it doesnt bother me!!" 
but lemaysa dont you wanna be the guy on the outside of the sewer who can smell the stench??

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 10 Mar 2017 13:26 #307991

  • GrowStrong
  • Current streak: 900 days
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • OMAAT
  • Posts: 882
  • Karma: 85

but (if) we are not actually ready to work - It won't work.



But such is the virtue of free will.



I think the answer (for me) lies in these two highlighted quotes.
Last Edit: 10 Mar 2017 13:27 by GrowStrong.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 10 Mar 2017 22:11 #308009

  • Hashem Help Me
  • Current streak: 1009 days
  • OFFLINE
  • Platinum Boarder
  • Posts: 1851
RaabosMachshovos wrote on 10 Mar 2017 12:55:
When you're in the sewer you can't smell the stench! 
I loved that phrase... the mashal is a guy is passing a waste management worker sitting over an open septic tank eating his lunch!! Hayitochain?? so putrid how in the world can he eat food here I can barely stop myself from puking from this stench... 
the answer is... the worker cant even smell it!!

I find this to be so true for me.... when it comes to goyish music[not the soft stuff ich.. more like rock etc..]..... come ellul I turn it off because i know its wrong ....though i dont FEEL its wrong... and inevitably sometime around chanuka i relapse... work has me stressed or i need to energize myself to go exercise and im flat...the first few times i feel terrible... the music feels foreign and tamai ....and I feel the effects... i know its damaging me... but give it a few days and weeks and i am convinced nothing is wrong ... what harm is it doing... i go back to not smelling the stench?!!

I dont think its a far stretch to say tayva is the same way... when were seeped in it... and especially in the velt we live in where the oilam is mamaesh not machshiv it as being wrong at all.... it is so hard... we are all in that sewer eating that tuna sandwhich..... how do we get out is the challenge ....but once we are there and we look at the tipshim sitting, feet dangling in the manhole cover, eating their lunch... our stomachs will once again cringe as the kedusha in us shines and rejects such tumah!!

Satisfying answer?? not at all.....because that doesnt feed the motivation ... "leave me alone ... fine im in a sewer but it doesnt bother me!!" 
but lemaysa dont you wanna be the guy on the outside of the sewer who can smell the stench??

Brilliant!
Feel free to contact me at michelgelner@gmail.com

My threads: Lessons Learned: guardyoureyes.com/forum/20-Important-Threads/335248-Lessons-Learned

                    My Story and G-d Bless GYE: guardyoureyes.com/forum/17-Balei-Battims-Forum/303036-My-story-and-G-d-bless-GYE

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 14 Mar 2017 14:35 #308144

  • Hakolhevel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 239
  • Karma: 22
GrowStrong wrote on 10 Mar 2017 13:26:


but (if) we are not actually ready to work - It won't work.



But such is the virtue of free will.



I think the answer (for me) lies in these two highlighted quotes.

How is that an answer as to WHY you want to change? You will only work properly if the reason is sound. Please see my Post above what didn't work (for me)

Please explain.

Re: The Road To Being Honest With Myself (and others:) 14 Mar 2017 14:42 #308145

  • Hakolhevel
  • OFFLINE
  • Gold Boarder
  • Posts: 239
  • Karma: 22
RaabosMachshovos wrote on 10 Mar 2017 12:55:
When you're in the sewer you can't smell the stench! 
I loved that phrase... the mashal is a guy is passing a waste management worker sitting over an open septic tank eating his lunch!! Hayitochain?? so putrid how in the world can he eat food here I can barely stop myself from puking from this stench... 
the answer is... the worker cant even smell it!!

I find this to be so true for me.... when it comes to goyish music[not the soft stuff ich.. more like rock etc..]..... come ellul I turn it off because i know its wrong ....though i dont FEEL its wrong... and inevitably sometime around chanuka i relapse... work has me stressed or i need to energize myself to go exercise and im flat...the first few times i feel terrible... the music feels foreign and tamai ....and I feel the effects... i know its damaging me... but give it a few days and weeks and i am convinced nothing is wrong ... what harm is it doing... i go back to not smelling the stench?!!

I dont think its a far stretch to say tayva is the same way... when were seeped in it... and especially in the velt we live in where the oilam is mamaesh not machshiv it as being wrong at all.... it is so hard... we are all in that sewer eating that tuna sandwhich..... how do we get out is the challenge ....but once we are there and we look at the tipshim sitting, feet dangling in the manhole cover, eating their lunch... our stomachs will once again cringe as the kedusha in us shines and rejects such tumah!!

Satisfying answer?? not at all.....because that doesnt feed the motivation ... "leave me alone ... fine im in a sewer but it doesnt bother me!!" 
but lemaysa dont you wanna be the guy on the outside of the sewer who can smell the stench??

I do want to be the guy outside the sewer. But that desire doesn't seem to be enough, b/c there is a pleasure being in the sewer too. Not just any pleasure, it's not just a tuna sandwich, more like a tuna steak. In addition we are so used to being in the sewer that, even though I realize it's a sewer, the desire to get out only lasts a certain period of time before we jump right back in. Maybe b/c we find some comfort being in a sewer. So ultimatelyy not wanting to be in the sewer makes us keep trying different things to get out, but I think as singularity or cordnoy mentioned we need to get to the core, why do we want to get out. Negitive reinforcement almost never works.
Time to create page: 0.63 seconds

Are you sure?

Yes