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TOPIC: Free Choice?!! 26770 Views

Re: Is she really triggering? 01 May 2017 20:44 #312030

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stillgoing wrote on 30 Apr 2017 14:36:
So, as you (might) know, I have ssa
 which means that I get very triggered by a lot of ads in our "frum" newspapers & magazine's, boys clothing stores, swimming ads, even regular photos. Now, these magazines all have a strict policy to never print a lady's picture. (What would they have done if Hillary would have won!). Being involved with so many people at gye, I can appreciate how this policy can be very helpful to a lot of people. "Innocent" pictures of an average lady can be very triggering to many of us and it's a nice favor that they don't print them.
Heres my question, and before I ask it I just want to preference and say that I can be triggered by tons of things including many foods, a certain model car and more, so don't be embarrassed to answer yes.  my question to all of the osa (opposite s attraction) guys here is, Would it make things any harder for you if they would print pictures of Hillary Clinton and blur out the boys swimming lessons ads?

I don't really care if it's Hillary, Sarah Palin or the Don. Any time I spend reading any of the rags triggers RID. However I can see that some pictures may trigger something more than that (Ivanka's not my type but she's better looking than Hillary), so I hear you.
Question is what do you/I do about it?
Quotes that speak to me
What do we replace it with....Life (Cordnoy)
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Re: Free Choice?!! 10 May 2017 16:55 #312808

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So Mark is always asking that we post 'what works for me'.
Evrything and nothing works for me, but  here is something easy that has helped me  over the  past week.

We all know that it's very hard to count clean days, even one day at a time requires us to be sober for a while day! last week i started counting every time that I got triggered. I did it in my head and didn't lose track because it was a counstant count that was always going up. Since I can get triggered on a constant bases, using the triggers to help me stay  focused helped me a lot. Often I would actually say the number out loud (a few people actually asked me "what did you say?" But they're not addicts, how could they understand ) and that helped the lure of the trigger fade into the distance. Somtimes I tried for another glance after I counted, so I added another number since it was another test.
 Somtimes I could go a few hours without adding any numbers (sleeping) and sometimes I could add 10 in a few minutes (shachris). I began to actually welcome the triggeres as opportunities to add numbers (as opposed to welcoming then for a whole nother reason)

The rules are, be lenient when deciding if it's a trigger. If it might be then it is and it counts. We have all experienced good and natural neutral parive events can lead us to act out hours later. So don't analyze if it's a trigger or not. It probably is.

Even though my particular challenge does not include ladys I added for that too since even for an ssa guy, imodestly dressed lady's are wrong and I shouldn't assume that I'll never be tempted.

The numbers added up fast and yesterday on the highway I reached 100 (thanks to the passenger in the car next to mine). My reaction surprised me. I actually got emotional and thanked Hashem for these 100 opportunities. That 100 times Hashem tested me and I passed. When I only counted days I would get depressed that I only managed to stay clean for a few days, but look, it's 100 times!

At 104 I fell. I won't say 'so what' because falls hurt, but i now realize that I passed 104 out of 105. I think that it puts things into perspective.
 I am not happy with the status quo, as the De'blasio said 'vision zero' for casualties. But I'm not starting from zero. I 'scored' 104 and am now continuing. Currently 110.

If anybody wants to try this on their own or as a group we can post here where we are holding or any thoughts/experiences about this.

COC
sg
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
Yirai's Memories
STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)

Re: Free Choice?!! 11 May 2017 07:40 #312866

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stillgoing wrote on 10 May 2017 16:55:
So Mark is always asking that we post 'what works for me'.
Evrything and nothing works for me, but  here is something easy that has helped me  over the  past week.

We all know that it's very hard to count clean days, even one day at a time requires us to be sober for a while day! last week i started counting every time that I got triggered. I did it in my head and didn't lose track because it was a counstant count that was always going up. Since I can get triggered on a constant bases, using the triggers to help me stay  focused helped me a lot. Often I would actually say the number out loud (a few people actually asked me "what did you say?" But they're not addicts, how could they understand ) and that helped the lure of the trigger fade into the distance. Somtimes I tried for another glance after I counted, so I added another number since it was another test.
 Somtimes I could go a few hours without adding any numbers (sleeping) and sometimes I could add 10 in a few minutes (shachris). I began to actually welcome the triggeres as opportunities to add numbers (as opposed to welcoming then for a whole nother reason)

The rules are, be lenient when deciding if it's a trigger. If it might be then it is and it counts. We have all experienced good and natural neutral parive events can lead us to act out hours later. So don't analyze if it's a trigger or not. It probably is.

Even though my particular challenge does not include ladys I added for that too since even for an ssa guy, imodestly dressed lady's are wrong and I shouldn't assume that I'll never be tempted.

The numbers added up fast and yesterday on the highway I reached 100 (thanks to the passenger in the car next to mine). My reaction surprised me. I actually got emotional and thanked Hashem for these 100 opportunities. That 100 times Hashem tested me and I passed. When I only counted days I would get depressed that I only managed to stay clean for a few days, but look, it's 100 times!

At 104 I fell. I won't say 'so what' because falls hurt, but i now realize that I passed 104 out of 105. I think that it puts things into perspective.
 I am not happy with the status quo, as the De'blasio said 'vision zero' for casualties. But I'm not starting from zero. I 'scored' 104 and am now continuing. Currently 110.

If anybody wants to try this on their own or as a group we can post here where we are holding or any thoughts/experiences about this.

COC
sg

I guess you'd add a trigger for each guy in the minyan. Good thing you got to 10 then. But you added one for yourself?

Maybe go daven with Women of the Wall? Would that help?

b'Hatzlocha! May Hashem guide you in your counting during this auspicious period of counting! May the YH run far away (but don't count on it... maybe you can... )
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"... It's over NINE-ZEROOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!"

One day... At A Time :-D


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Re: Free Choice?!! 12 May 2017 12:13 #312948

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Thanks Sing, (are you Chinese?)

For all of the scores of people who are now counting (and just forgetting to post....) I just wanted to add that to count a trigger does not have to be something you saw. It can be a thought, a smell, a feeling (like the itch that our friend waydown would talk.about) anything that you know will often lead you down, can count as a trigger. The point is to cap the trigger/feeling/whatever right where it is, give it a name (a number) and we can then move on.

We all count, so count!
Count sg XIV
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
Yirai's Memories
STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)
Last Edit: 12 May 2017 12:15 by stillgoing.

Re: Free Choice?!! 12 May 2017 13:43 #312951

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stillgoing wrote on 12 May 2017 12:13:
Thanks Sing, (are you Chinese?)

For all of the scores of people who are now counting (and just forgetting to post....) I just wanted to add that to count a trigger does not have to be something you saw. It can be a thought, a smell, a feeling (like the itch that our friend waydown would talk.about) anything that you know will often lead you down, can count as a trigger. The point is to cap the trigger/feeling/whatever right where it is, give it a name (a number) and we can then move on.

We all count, so count!
Count sg XIV

I totally hear that, but there is a flip side which is to pay no attention to the small little things and ignore them and not make them a bigger deal than they are

Re: Free Choice?!! 12 May 2017 14:26 #312959

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Workingguy's approach speaks to me. Why give triggers so much attention? Generally, when a thought or scene  raises it's ugly head, try just softly but firmly to push it away. In the course of time they become less frequent. True, you will not have the exact stats but the difference in quality of life -less triggers- is obvious. I have tried it and it works. 
Sometimes, I play a mind game where if the situation is particularly alluring I picture wrapping my nisayon in a package and putting it on the mizbayach. Which in reality is what is being done when we don't fall for the foolish filthy lure that is set in front of us.

But generally, I do the flippant ignore deal as I explained in the first paragraph.

By counting, are we not anticipating the trigger and almost waiting for it to happen. Could it in of itself cause triggering?
Hey, If it really works for you guys, why not?
But I personally relate to Workingguy's approach.
Last Edit: 12 May 2017 14:33 by yiraishamaim. Reason: better

Re: Free Choice?!! 12 May 2017 17:07 #312972

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Workingguy wrote on 12 May 2017 13:43:

stillgoing wrote on 12 May 2017 12:13:
Thanks Sing, (are you Chinese?)

For all of the scores of people who are now counting (and just forgetting to post....) I just wanted to add that to count a trigger does not have to be something you saw. It can be a thought, a smell, a feeling (like the itch that our friend waydown would talk.about) anything that you know will often lead you down, can count as a trigger. The point is to cap the trigger/feeling/whatever right where it is, give it a name (a number) and we can then move on.

We all count, so count!
Count sg XIV

I totally hear that, but there is a flip side which is to pay no attention to the small little things and ignore them and not make them a bigger deal than they are

There are multiple reaction to triggers
I believe one should not dismiss them
The question is what is our reaction

1) Discard each
2) Count each
3) Swear each one off
4) Share with a partner
5) Act upon it with P&M (was that supposed to be in a spoiler?)
6) Consider the white book
7) Consider therapy
8) [Add your own idea here]

They say "do what works"...
My Story---------Dov Quotes


What works for me:
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Re: Free Choice?!! 12 May 2017 17:21 #312975

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yiraishamaim wrote on 12 May 2017 14:26:
Workingguy's approach speaks to me. Why give triggers so much attention? Generally, when a thought or scene  raises it's ugly head, try just softly but firmly to push it away. In the course of time they become less frequent. True, you will not have the exact stats but the difference in quality of life -less triggers- is obvious. I have tried it and it works. 
Sometimes, I play a mind game where if the situation is particularly alluring I picture wrapping my nisayon in a package and putting it on the mizbayach. Which in reality is what is being done when we don't fall for the foolish filthy lure that is set in front of us.

But generally, I do the flippant ignore deal as I explained in the first paragraph.

By counting, are we not anticipating the trigger and almost waiting for it to happen. Could it in of itself cause triggering?
Hey, If it really works for you guys, why not?
But I personally relate to Workingguy's approach.


I completely agree, which is why I wrote "don't harp on it, don't dwell on it, just add a number and move on."
For me, there is no such thing as 'too small' of a trigger. They are all big because they all lead to big places. So, I agree that we absolutely should not give it more attention then it deserves. I add a number and move on, whereas in the past when I had a 'small' trigger it would linger and fester in my mind until it was a full blown motion picture.

I have no problem If you want to disagree with me, but it seems here you are disagreeing yet saying the same thing. I'd like to understand how (if any) we differ.

Perhaps I didn't understand your post, or perhaps you didn't understand mine.
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
Yirai's Memories
STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)

Re: Free Choice?!! 12 May 2017 17:25 #312976

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Markz wrote on 12 May 2017 17:07:

Workingguy wrote on 12 May 2017 13:43:

stillgoing wrote on 12 May 2017 12:13:
Thanks Sing, (are you Chinese?)

For all of the scores of people who are now counting (and just forgetting to post....) I just wanted to add that to count a trigger does not have to be something you saw. It can be a thought, a smell, a feeling (like the itch that our friend waydown would talk.about) anything that you know will often lead you down, can count as a trigger. The point is to cap the trigger/feeling/whatever right where it is, give it a name (a number) and we can then move on.

We all count, so count!
Count sg XIV

I totally hear that, but there is a flip side which is to pay no attention to the small little things and ignore them and not make them a bigger deal than they are

There are multiple reaction to triggers
I believe one should not dismiss them
The question is what is our reaction

1) Discard each
2) Count each
3) Swear each one off
4) Share with a partner
5) Act upon it with P&M (was that supposed to be in a spoiler?)
6) Consider the white book
7) Consider therapy
8) [Add your own idea here]

They say "do what works"...


Mark, I've tried all of those (yes, even #5). I'm counting for the sole purpose of discarding them. Similar to Yeri's korbon on the mizbach, my numbers are to show Hashem how I'm reacting to the challenges that He is sending me. But the main advantage that I have had (so far) in counting is that it helps me forget it. Yeri wrote "gently push it away" I'm still looking for the instructions for that, Cords says "lust melts in the light" maybe I don't do it right but I haven't found it to work for me. Many say "surrender" after two active years on gye, I still don't know what that means practically. So I count. Its easy, iit's straightforward, and so far (for me) it works.
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
Yirai's Memories
STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)
Last Edit: 12 May 2017 17:33 by stillgoing.

Re: Free Choice?!! 12 May 2017 21:56 #312992

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Just to clarify a little bit the idea of what I'm saying – in meditation there is an idea that you aren't your thoughts and they also use it to deal with anxiety, OCD, and the like. So you're supposed to notice your thoughts and realize that you aren't them and often we can't control our thoughts we don't have to take them seriously. 

We can observe them as a casual observer and see how interesting that I'm having these thoughts and move on. I've done it not so much for Lust but for other damaging thoughts and it often works; it's amazing to see how when you don't view your thoughts as who you are they are so much less powerful or relevant.

i'm actually not sure that I'm saying anything that different than anyone else

Re: Free Choice?!! 14 May 2017 02:13 #313003

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Hi Stillgoing,
First of all may I just say how much I respect your courage for taking on the SSA struggle. I need not tell you how so many have given in to this particular challenge and taken this  to another level - embracing brazenly what secular society calls simply "an alternative lifestyle". You on the other hand are not backing down from this formidable challenge.
This expression of respect for you is long overdue.
I have no doubt that Hashem is so proud of your efforts. 
KOMT! 
As for our issue at hand. I remember Dov writing that when a person finds himself obsessing over someone it is wise to daven for that person. I think it is to make the person more human and less an object of desire. At the same time Dov suggests it is not wise to daven frequently at very situation, for that is really a way that your fooling yourself so you can focus on the lust a bit longer. ( I hope I understood Dov correctly)
Again we are not all the same. For me to count triggers would be giving the trigger too much importance. I would end up focusing on it a second or more than I should. To do that would be counter productive for recovery.
I have come to realize that even the mizbeach mind trick I do, should be done only sparingly. Only if its's a little bit stronger of a nisayon than usual should I employ this method

So I have three levels of dealing.
1)usual simple - push away
2) intermediate - mizbeach mind game 
3) obsessive - daven for the person

Re: Free Choice?!! 14 May 2017 14:09 #313025

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yiraishamaim wrote on 14 May 2017 02:13:
Hi Stillgoing,
First of all may I just say how much I respect your courage for taking on the SSA struggle. I need not tell you how so many have given in to this particular challenge and taken this  to another level - embracing brazenly what secular society calls simply "an alternative lifestyle". You on the other hand are not backing down from this formidable challenge.
This expression of respect for you is long overdue.
I have no doubt that Hashem is so proud of your efforts. 
KOMT! 
As for our issue at hand. I remember Dov writing that when a person finds himself obsessing over someone it is wise to daven for that person. I think it is to make the person more human and less an object of desire. At the same time Dov suggests it is not wise to daven frequently at very situation, for that is really a way that your fooling yourself so you can focus on the lust a bit longer. ( I hope I understood Dov correctly)
Again we are not all the same. For me to count triggers would be giving the trigger too much importance. I would end up focusing on it a second or more than I should. To do that would be counter productive for recovery.
I have come to realize that even the mizbeach mind trick I do, should be done only sparingly. Only if its's a little bit stronger of a nisayon than usual should I employ this method

So I have three levels of dealing.
1)usual simple - push away
2) intermediate - mizbeach mind game 
3) obsessive - daven for the person


Thank you Yerai,  
 I appreciate your chizuk as I always have the past two years (even during your long absence).

We both have the same goal. Deprive the trigger of as much attention as possible. Perhaps you are on a higher level of sobriety then me. You write for a 'small' trigger you just push it away. I have no idea how you do that. I can't just say adabra kdabra and the thought will be gone. Perhaps you have developed a method in your mind to 'push it away' because for me, it's the pink elephant syndrome. Try to push it away and it comes back double.
I've found that by simply saying a number I am able to move on. I can't simply ignore it. I am addicted to lust. I can't pretend that I'm not.
Again, perhaps you are in a better place then me and you are somehow able to simply 'push the thought away' we both agree that we want the thought gone as fast as possible, and I'm happy that you are able to do it instantly.
I need about 1 second to acknowledge that I'm lusting and then I can move on.
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
Yirai's Memories
STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)

Re: Free Choice?!! 14 May 2017 14:25 #313026

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stillgoing wrote on 14 May 2017 14:09:

yiraishamaim wrote on 14 May 2017 02:13:
Hi Stillgoing,
First of all may I just say how much I respect your courage for taking on the SSA struggle. I need not tell you how so many have given in to this particular challenge and taken this  to another level - embracing brazenly what secular society calls simply "an alternative lifestyle". You on the other hand are not backing down from this formidable challenge.
This expression of respect for you is long overdue.
I have no doubt that Hashem is so proud of your efforts. 
KOMT! 
As for our issue at hand. I remember Dov writing that when a person finds himself obsessing over someone it is wise to daven for that person. I think it is to make the person more human and less an object of desire. At the same time Dov suggests it is not wise to daven frequently at very situation, for that is really a way that your fooling yourself so you can focus on the lust a bit longer. ( I hope I understood Dov correctly)
Again we are not all the same. For me to count triggers would be giving the trigger too much importance. I would end up focusing on it a second or more than I should. To do that would be counter productive for recovery.
I have come to realize that even the mizbeach mind trick I do, should be done only sparingly. Only if its's a little bit stronger of a nisayon than usual should I employ this method

So I have three levels of dealing.
1)usual simple - push away
2) intermediate - mizbeach mind game 
3) obsessive - daven for the person



Thank you Yerai,  
 I appreciate your chizuk as I always have the past two years (even during your long absence).

We both have the same goal. Deprive the trigger of as much attention as possible. Perhaps you are on a higher level of sobriety then me. You write for a 'small' trigger you just push it away. I have no idea how you do that. I can't just say adabra kdabra and the thought will be gone. Perhaps you have developed a method in your mind to 'push it away' because for me, it's the pink elephant syndrome. Try to push it away and it comes back double.
I've found that by simply saying a number I am able to move on. I can't simply ignore it. I am addicted to lust. I can't pretend that I'm not.
Again, perhaps you are in a better place then me and you are somehow able to simply 'push the thought away' we both agree that we want the thought gone as fast as possible, and I'm happy that you are able to do it instantly.
I need about 1 second to acknowledge that I'm lusting and then I can move on.

I was speaking to my sponsor about this last night.
In sobriety there is a kind of hyper awareness of all the triggers that are out there.
The disease craves to crave is what he said.. I believe its an AA statement.
We don't have to participate in it, or give it any power, he said.
It can take years for the hyper awareness to get to a point of neutrality...if ever. And we are not transcending into pure light any time soon, is how he put it.
There are 18 'tricks' in the white book, How we overcame lust... have you checked them out?

Re: Free Choice?!! 14 May 2017 14:44 #313027

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I don't know anything about levels but this I can tell you. I can tell you how I feel about the whole struggle . 
 I WANT TO LIVE!   Do you hear me?  I WANT TO LIVE.

If I could scream it any louder I would. I want to have my journey in this world with great relationships. I want to make a comfortable living. I want to smell the flowers and take a deep breath. How about a leisurely walk in the park? Learn Torah and be mezakeh others in a variety of ways. 
Now what place does an obsession with lust have in all of this?

It makes life unmanageable and deters from happening all the wonderful things just mentioned.

When a person wants to on a diet he needs strong motivation, both negative and positive.
He should strip down and look at his unattractive pot belly and really study it. It's disgusting. Besides being not healthy.
Then think how it would be if he was in shape. He'd be more attractive and healthier. People coming over and complimenting him. Many might even ask for advice. Such thoughts , really emphasized I believe could be very helpful.
We say we hate the way lust is taking over our lives. We must do the same as with the diet mashal. Lust, at least how we have it in our lives, is evil and ugly. Those moments when an addict has clarity of mind are the times he must seriously meditate on these things to form the right attitudes.
These attitudes are not enough for sobriety. However, they are very powerful tools to get us motivated to follow the programs that indeed have proven to be effective.
Last Edit: 14 May 2017 14:46 by yiraishamaim.

Re: Free Choice?!! 14 May 2017 14:46 #313029

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GrowStrong wrote on 14 May 2017 14:25:
I was speaking to my sponsor about this last night.
In sobriety there is a kind of hyper awareness of all the triggers that are out there.
The disease craves to crave is what he said.. I believe its an AA statement.
We don't have to participate in it, or give it any power, he said.
It can take years for the hyper awareness to get to a point of neutrality...if ever. And we are not transcending into pure light any time soon, is how he put it.
There are 18 'tricks' in the white book, How we overcame lust... have you checked them out?


Hi GS the second.
To be perfectly honest, I didn't really understand most of what you just wrote.
(Except for the crave to crave part.)
Can you explain it in a simpler words? On lag b'omer I'm so busy delving into the mystical writings of the zohar that I didn't get your post.
BIG SHOT!
Free Choice?!
Yirai's Memories
STORY TIME :)

Dr. Seuss - You have brains in your head. You have feet in your shoes. You can steer yourself in any direction you choose. You're on your own, and you know what you know. And you are the guy who'll decide where to go.

FSKOT! (Fell Shmell--Keep on Trucking) (The Rebba R' Bards)
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