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From tragedy to redemption
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TOPIC: From tragedy to redemption 46918 Views

Re: From tragedy to redemption 18 Jun 2015 15:46 #257131

  • serenity
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I can relate to that. Thanks.
Much Hatzlacha!

My Threads:
Glad to be here
Don't slip it hurts
Lions & Tigers & Internet, Oh My!

--"ולא המדרש עיקר, אלא המעשה"
--"To promise not to do a thing is the surest way in the world to make a body want to go and do that very thing." Mark Twain
--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
--You hit rock bottom when you decide to stop digging.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 18 Jun 2015 16:18 #257136

  • Hashivalisesonyishecho
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serenity wrote:


We (lust addicts) are not seeking a loving intimate relationship with that woman we meet in business, no matter how much one may think he is. If we were seeking that, we'd go home to our wives.



Why would I think I'm seeking that?! I'm meeting about business with no other intention whatsoever, but then during the meeting other thoughts occur which I am trying to learn how to avoid having.

serenity wrote:
Hashiva, you don't have a strictly business connection with these women, you just pretend to. I'm sorry to say but when we think like that, we are living one big lie.


When a person needs to go to the grocery and on the way he doesn't control his eyes, that doesn't (necessarily) mean that part of his reason for walking outside was to see women. His reason was only to get to the grocery but on the way he had a nisoyon. The same is with this. I am speaking to this woman ONLY because of business, the same as that drama teacher you referred to who isn't there because he wants to fall. He's there to teach. But then we have certain difficulties. This is the truth. To be extra accusatory on oneself beyond the truth isn't productive, because it make being honest with true self accusations foggy because you don't feel that this one is really true because you attack yourself falsely too.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 18 Jun 2015 17:24 #257142

  • cordnoy
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serenity wrote:
I can relate to that. Thanks.


I can't.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 18 Jun 2015 20:48 #257152

  • belmont4175
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serenity wrote:


As a continuation of the above point and in reference to some of your other comments, these women are not your problem. You are your problem, just as I am my problem. And every time I think that some woman is disgusting in anyway, I am just looking at myself in the mirror, because I am every bit as disgusting. I'm even more disgusting because I am living a lie and a double life. This woman is at least being honest.

You see a guy like Gevura Shebyesod has a response like he did for a reason. He's a healthy thinking guy and his sobriety shows it. He's living in the solution. He's not giving away his Power to women that he would otherwise may have at one time described as disgusting or pritzus. Hashiva, every time we look at a woman as our problem, or think of her as inappropriate or disgusting, we are giving our power away to her and we are giving her power over us. Aside from the lie we are telling ourselves, the lie that she and not we are the sick ones. She may be sick as well, but that really not our business and should evoke our ruchmanus if anything.


Serenity! very well said, it gives light to the whole issue, Congratulations to your 90 days, may you see many more years of real sobriety.
הסיבה שיש דברים קשים העוברים עליך היא בגלל שהאדם חושב כי "אני עומד" שהוא מנהל הכל,
ברגע שיתן הכנעה כי השי"ת מנהיג הכל אז כבר אפשר להתמודד עם הקשיים. שמעתי מאדם גדול

If life is a LEMON make LEMONADE

Thank You Hashem for every moment of Sobriety!
Last Edit: 18 Jun 2015 20:49 by belmont4175.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 18 Jun 2015 20:54 #257153

  • SIB101854
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In other words, the issue is not that of women's attire or being attractive , but rather how we choose to react to that phenomenon.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 18 Jun 2015 22:50 #257170

  • cordnoy
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9494 wrote:
Hashiva, I have not analysed your posts too closely, so apologies if I am going off track here.

Maybe the problem is that you are approaching each meeting as some sort of milchama. In your mind, she is the yetser hora, she is a disgusting, tumadik, satanistic, pritsusdik, untzniusdik "shwartze shiksa". Perhaps you are obsessing over the situation and hyping it up way more than is necessary. It is true as you say that you have to meet with her, but from your posts it seems like you view each meetings as world war( maybe you even secretly enjoy the battle:blink: ?).

Perhaps try to view it as exactly what it is: A business meeting between two adults, no big deal here. She dresses a certain way due to personal lifestyle choices. And you happen to be a healthy male who may notice her style of dress (or lack thereof).

But if you go into the meeting thinking constantly OMG OMG OMG OMG I have to meet now with this shiksadik pritzudik this and that - you are setting yourself up for disaster.(Although I am personally guilty of this all the time).

To summarise, perhaps we are trying to hard, thinking too hard, and really need to take a chill pill regarding these meetings with women.


amen!
a chill pill....hu?
perhaps like before one goes to university?
or perhaps before the kiddush shabbos day?
or perhaps before the exam?
or perhaps before the meal with family members?
or perhaps before vacation to the mainland?
or.....

b'hatzlachah
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 18 Jun 2015 23:37 #257180

  • cordnoy
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9494 wrote:
9494
(Although I am personally guilty of this all the time).


You da man!
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 19 Jun 2015 05:11 #257189

  • Hashivalisesonyishecho
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9494 wrote:


Perhaps try to view it as exactly what it is: A business meeting between two adults, no big deal here. She dresses a certain way due to personal lifestyle choices. And you happen to be a healthy male who may notice her style of dress (or lack thereof).



Right, it might ease the problem if I take a chill pill. But the situation itself, even when chilled, poses a problem. The problem is my healthy maleness noticing and the thoughts that follow.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 19 Jun 2015 09:08 #257192

  • shlomo613
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cordnoy wrote:
9494 wrote:
Hashiva, I have not analysed your posts too closely, so apologies if I am going off track here.

Maybe the problem is that you are approaching each meeting as some sort of milchama. In your mind, she is the yetser hora, she is a disgusting, tumadik, satanistic, pritsusdik, untzniusdik "shwartze shiksa". Perhaps you are obsessing over the situation and hyping it up way more than is necessary. It is true as you say that you have to meet with her, but from your posts it seems like you view each meetings as world war( maybe you even secretly enjoy the battle:blink: ?).

Perhaps try to view it as exactly what it is: A business meeting between two adults, no big deal here. She dresses a certain way due to personal lifestyle choices. And you happen to be a healthy male who may notice her style of dress (or lack thereof).

But if you go into the meeting thinking constantly OMG OMG OMG OMG I have to meet now with this shiksadik pritzudik this and that - you are setting yourself up for disaster.(Although I am personally guilty of this all the time).

To summarise, perhaps we are trying to hard, thinking too hard, and really need to take a chill pill regarding these meetings with women.


amen!
a chill pill....hu?
perhaps like before one goes to university?
or perhaps before the kiddush shabbos day?
or perhaps before the exam?
or perhaps before the meal with family members?
or perhaps before vacation to the mainland?
or.....

b'hatzlachah


Maybe a chill patch or a chill injection..

Btw I'm loving this thread some good stuff coming up.
Really discussing relevant topical stuff in a practical way.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 19 Jun 2015 11:34 #257195

  • cordnoy
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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
9494 wrote:


Perhaps try to view it as exactly what it is: A business meeting between two adults, no big deal here. She dresses a certain way due to personal lifestyle choices. And you happen to be a healthy male who may notice her style of dress (or lack thereof).



Right, it might ease the problem if I take a chill pill. But the situation itself, even when chilled, poses a problem. The problem is my healthy maleness noticing and the thoughts that follow.


If you are chilled who says there will be thoughts?
That is obsessing.
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 19 Jun 2015 14:11 #257207

  • Hashivalisesonyishecho
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shlomo613 wrote:

Btw I'm loving this thread some good stuff coming up.
Really discussing relevant topical stuff in a practical way.


Thanks. That make me feel good to have a part in something of value.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 19 Jun 2015 21:28 #257249

  • serenity
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Have a great Shabboos, Hashiva!
Much Hatzlacha!

My Threads:
Glad to be here
Don't slip it hurts
Lions & Tigers & Internet, Oh My!

--"ולא המדרש עיקר, אלא המעשה"
--"To promise not to do a thing is the surest way in the world to make a body want to go and do that very thing." Mark Twain
--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
--You hit rock bottom when you decide to stop digging.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 21 Jun 2015 15:01 #257292

  • Hashivalisesonyishecho
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I am in need of clarity. As I write, I will probably become clearer, and certainly by some clarity offered by the wonderful chaverim here.

I am presently in a mode of being able to be in the airport, a non frum hotel at this time of year, Manhattan etc. and not look where I shouldn't and not have a problem. But I have a non Jewish female worker whom I recently employed who poses an issue. She seems like a decent person, does good work, and I like her personality. If this was a man, all would be wonderful. I would give bonuses and praise his work as appropriate. If whenever I have such an issue I just create an Syag and and Issur, and I would say that I simply may not employ this woman, I'm afraid that the abundance of issurim would eventually not hold up and I would eventually break a syag and then break all rules chas vesholom. I want to be able to like this worker as a worker and even as a person without having bad thoughts. When she does a good job an something, I would like to be able to praise her without it having any 'other' meaning. Is this possible?

Re: From tragedy to redemption 21 Jun 2015 15:36 #257293

  • cordnoy
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Hashivalisesonyishecho wrote:
I am in need of clarity. As I write, I will probably become clearer, and certainly by some clarity offered by the wonderful chaverim here.

I am presently in a mode of being able to be in the airport, a non frum hotel at this time of year, Manhattan etc. and not look where I shouldn't and not have a problem. But I have a non Jewish female worker whom I recently employed who poses an issue. She seems like a decent person, does good work, and I like her personality. If this was a man, all would be wonderful. I would give bonuses and praise his work as appropriate. If whenever I have such an issue I just create an Syag and and Issur, and I would say that I simply may not employ this woman, I'm afraid that the abundance of issurim would eventually not hold up and I would eventually break a syag and then break all rules chas vesholom. I want to be able to like this worker as a worker and even as a person without having bad thoughts. When she does a good job an something, I would like to be able to praise her without it having any 'other' meaning. Is this possible?


For you; yes
For me; no

b'hatzlachah
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From tragedy to redemption 21 Jun 2015 17:29 #257296

  • serenity
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Thanks for sharing. I'm at a workshop being given by Dov btw. I can send regards if u want. The issue for me would not be worrying about having an affair with the worker. The issue would be the fantasy that I would entertain in my mind and carry with me. So far I have been doing okay as far as I can tell. I make clear boundaries in my mind and do not dwell on the thoughts. I think u r talking about the same issue. Even the possibility of anything other than work is not an option at all.

Hatzlacha
Much Hatzlacha!

My Threads:
Glad to be here
Don't slip it hurts
Lions & Tigers & Internet, Oh My!

--"ולא המדרש עיקר, אלא המעשה"
--"To promise not to do a thing is the surest way in the world to make a body want to go and do that very thing." Mark Twain
--"If, when you honestly want to, you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking (or lusting), you have little control over the amount you take, you are probably alcoholic (or sexaholic)." AA Big Book P. 45. Parenthesis added.
--You hit rock bottom when you decide to stop digging.
Last Edit: 21 Jun 2015 17:42 by serenity.
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