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whats the point?
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TOPIC: whats the point? 14099 Views

Re: whats the point? 17 Jun 2013 15:45 #209490

  • guy
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Dov,
I hear what you are saying about accepting responsibility for my situation today, and you're probably right that I should work on that.
However I know that it was hashem who gave me that "netiya" to go looking for porn.
To just accept my current situation and then turn to hashem for help sounds to me like turning a blind eye to the fact that he gave me this "taava" and all the pain it caused me till now.
Didn't he cause me pain?
So why am I turning to him for help?
Maybe this time he will actually help me to get out of it once and for all?
Maybe, but what happened to the 999 times that I've asked him up till now?
And it's definitely not worth it if I'm just going to fall with my face in the mud again.
You may call it stirring up the dregs, but I have to be real with what I feel.
And to me it still sounds like I've got to hug a man because he's pointing a gun at me, and hope that he doesn't shoot me in return.

Re: whats the point? 17 Jun 2013 17:52 #209502

  • inastruggle
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I know that this question wasn't directed to me, but you seem to be forgetting that not only did Hashem give you the netiya, but more than that, he also gives you the intense urge each and every time.More than that, he also gives you every single problem you've ever had.

A few points,
1)are you at the level to say that you completely deserve Hashem to listen to you every time?
if not,
2)have you really turned to Hashem with a broken heart and asked him to please give you a matnas chinum and help you stop? (i know I haven't reached that level yet)
4)what exactly are you expecting? To just ask hashem "please take it away" and have him just do it right away without any work on your behalf?

Re: whats the point? 17 Jun 2013 19:33 #209523

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Hashem gives us all sorts of problems, and we are able to accept that they are positive in some way that perhaps we cannot understand.

It sounds like this problem has caused you so much pain that you cannot fathom that somehow it is ultimately for your good.

Is that accurate?

Re: whats the point? 17 Jun 2013 19:47 #209528

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Sometimes we are put into difficult situations or challenges in order for us to grow and become better people through them.

That's what we're here for, to become better people and to make the world a better place.

It's kind of like a child doing a difficult assignment. It may be a frustrating challenge for the child to go through, but it's important for his development.

That being said, the child could always turn to his father for help and he will surely be answered.

Re: whats the point? 17 Jun 2013 19:48 #209529

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I think what is bothering guy is that he feels he is not being answered.

Re: whats the point? 17 Jun 2013 20:02 #209534

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Well, the father can't do the work for the child, that would defeat the purpose of the assignment, but he can offer his assistance if the child is ready to do the necessary work.

Re: whats the point? 18 Jun 2013 02:12 #209586

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GUY

I think the pain is the punishment for my sin.
I think I made Teshuva at one point and it felt good but in a way that the goodness was a feeling of general well being, rather than the intense high that I get during sinning, prior to my regret and pain after I sin.

DOV

Thanks for your words of encouragement.

I agree I need to know how to live right, to manage my response to my pain so that it does not cause me to sin.

But I also think I need to work on the cause of my pain.
The cause of my pain is something I believe is still constant in my life, still being added to.
I personally need to understand it and work on removing or at least reducing that cause, because if I do, then I will have less provocation to sin.

I know that for some people on here their lust is a straight forward result of their Yetzer Hara, but for me I think it is that my Yetzer Hara is using my pain to guide me to sin, rather than just excessive horniness.
99% of the time that I masturbate or watch porn, it is because I am in pain.
Only 1% of the time is it because I am excessively horny.
Last Edit: 18 Jun 2013 02:13 by George999. Reason: clarification

Re: whats the point? 18 Jun 2013 11:20 #209594

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gibbor120
Hashem gives us all sorts of problems, and we are able to accept that they are positive in some way that perhaps we cannot understand.

It sounds like this problem has caused you so much pain that you cannot fathom that somehow it is ultimately for your good.

Is that accurate?



I think what is bothering guy is that he feels he is not being answered.


Exactly.

inastruggle
4)what exactly are you expecting? To just ask hashem "please take it away" and have him just do it right away without any work on your behalf?


WITH OUT ANY WORK ON MY BEHALF????????!!!!!!!!!
I don't even know how to begin to describe how angry that sentence made me.
Are you calling over a decade and a half of struggling "No work"?
I have asked countless times for hashem to help me, and as far as I know all those pleas for help were sincere, and ultimately, fruitless.
I don't know you, and I don't know exactly what your story is but I'm assuming that you have had this serpent wrapped around you and have felt it's squeeze.
I seriously hope that I completely misunderstood what you wrote, and that it was a classic case of miss-communication.
Last Edit: 18 Jun 2013 11:22 by guy.

Re: whats the point? 18 Jun 2013 13:23 #209596

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Guy, I understand your question and feel for you. The are questions that have come up many times in yeshivah and I wish I took notes in shmuz so I could repeat them to you, nut all I can really say is that after these shmuzen I felt clear on the subject. So, I'd recommend you ask these questions to a Rav or mechanech. I'm sure they'd be happy to have a good talk with you about these things.

Also, I don't know if you're seeing a therapist but I wonder if you wouldn't find it, well, therapeutic. Therapists aren't just for crazy people, people who are going through a hard time, like you seem to be, can benefit too.

Just a quick thought about the brocho of pain that Hashem gives us. If we didn't feel pain we would become much more injured. If we didn't feel pain when we touched something hot, we'd be burning our hands a lot more, and if we didn't feel emotional pain we would never grow as a person. C'sheim shemevorchim al hatov, cach mevorchim al hora.

Re: whats the point? 18 Jun 2013 13:53 #209599

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Dear DR.
Thanks for your suggestions.
As far as consulting with a rav, I have done that in the past (Rav,parents,Rosh yeshiva ect.),not regarding the subject of emunah, but about my problem with porn. I thought that the shame of opening up to someone would be worth it if I managed to get over it with their help. It would have been.
I have also been to an amazing therapist, unfortunately he thought the problem would go away when I got married, which it did for a while. Needles to say, it came back, and now I find myself barely keeping my head above the water financially and in no way able to afford going back to him.
Regarding what you wrote about pain, I agree with you 100%, as long as the pain eventually brings about recovery, and as of yet it has not.
I have not given up yet, or else I wouldn't be here, but I don't know any more what to do.
Last Edit: 18 Jun 2013 14:19 by guy.

Re: whats the point? 18 Jun 2013 15:22 #209600

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You've described your pain in very vague terms. What is it specifically that's bothering you? Is it that you don't have confidence that you'll manage to quit permanently for the future, or is it guilt over what's happened in the past? Remember the only day that matters is today, and this is all about progress not perfection.

Or is it anger over the past? ''Hashem meymis umchayeh, morid sheol vayoal - Hashem gives death and life, lowers to the depth and lifts up.'' Why does it say death before it says life? Surely life comes before death, it should say Hashem gives life and then takes it away? And why does Dovid Hamelech thank Hashem for lowering him to the depth and then bringing him up again?

One of the things I (sometimes) think about during shmona esrei is at the words ''mechayeh meisim berachamim rabim.'' I sometimes feel spiritually dead, and I only have myself to blame for that. But it gives me great hope that Hashem can revive me from this death even at times when I'm so far gone that I can't do it for myself.
Last Edit: 18 Jun 2013 18:29 by Watson.

Re: whats the point? 18 Jun 2013 18:09 #209609

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guy wrote:
Dear DR.
Thanks for your suggestions.
As far as consulting with a rav, I have done that in the past (Rav,parents,Rosh yeshiva ect.),not regarding the subject of emunah, but about my problem with porn. I thought that the shame of opening up to someone would be worth it if I managed to get over it with their help. It would have been.
I have also been to an amazing therapist, unfortunately he thought the problem would go away when I got married, which it did for a while. Needles to say, it came back, and now I find myself barely keeping my head above the water financially and in no way able to afford going back to him.
Regarding what you wrote about pain, I agree with you 100%, as long as the pain eventually brings about recovery, and as of yet it has not.
I have not given up yet, or else I wouldn't be here, but I don't know any more what to do.

Wow! You have really taken a lot of steps, very brave steps, to overcome this. You are obviously very committed.

I am confused as to why a therapist would think that getting married would solve the problem. There are dozens of married guys on this forum and they all say the same thing. Marriage doesn't help. Dr. Twerski and Dr. Sorotzkin have written that as well. Unfortunately, I have seen many posts on this forum from people that went to therapists that are just clueless when it comes to porn addiction.

I don't know if you have "met" dov yet on this forum. You can read many of his posts by clicking the "dov quotes" link in my signature. He has been in SA for over 15 years and has a lot of experience and wisdom. He leads a 12 step phone group and is willing to talk to people on this forum. He has helped me and many others. I would highly recommend getting in touch with him.

I would think that the next logical step for you might be a 12 step phone group or real 12 step meetings. Both are free.

I forgot to ask, does your wife know about your problem? Would she support you going to meetings?
Last Edit: 18 Jun 2013 18:11 by gibbor120.

Re: whats the point? 18 Jun 2013 20:21 #209632

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I just want to point out that inastruggle is as of now away for the Summer without internet and therefore he won't likely respond to your post until he gets back.

I have known him through this forum for some time now, though, and he's not an "attacker.' I can only assume that since you hadn't put much in your original post as to what methods you've tried or how actively you've tried to stop in the past, he thought that perhaps you were under the impression that merely davening to Hashem that He should take away the problem would do the trick. There are some people who look at the 12 steps and mistakenly think it's that simple. Surrender your lust to G-d and wipe your hands, finished.

Obviously it takes a lot more than that. We need to try to figure out what aspects in our lives drives us to porn and masturbation and work on those issues in a more healthy way, thereby eliminating the "need" for it.

Hatzlacha!

Re: whats the point? 19 Jun 2013 11:33 #209723

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Thank you Skeptical for clearing that up,
I realized after I posted my post that I over reacted and was not "Dan lekaf zechut".
Inastruggle had no way of knowing what I've tried over the years.

gibbor120
I would think that the next logical step for you might be a 12 step phone group or real 12 step meetings. Both are free.

I forgot to ask, does your wife know about your problem? Would she support you going to meetings?


First of all I don't really know what the 12 step program is, would you mind explaining?
Also why do you think it's the next logical step?

Regarding my wife, I don't think she knows, sometimes I got the feeling that she does, but I think that was just paranoia on my part. I can't see how it would be beneficial to tell her, I think it would actually totally break her.

P.S I have "met" Dov and we're sorta in contact via the PM system.
Thanks.
Last Edit: 19 Jun 2013 11:49 by guy.

Re: whats the point? 19 Jun 2013 15:28 #209724

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Dear Georgenuevenuevenueve (and maybe Guy, too),

Working on the cause of your pain. Isn't that a thing you (and Guy) have been doing for quite some time already? I believe with my whole heart that what you describe is a valiant search for the Holy Grail...and it goes on forever, taking on a life of it's own. A run towards finding myself that never ends, for it is really AWAY from ourselves, in disguise.

And why should that be so? Maybe because:

The searcher has not yet accepted the 'sudden', inconvenient fact that using his drug has been screwing up his mind, his relations with others, and his relationship with his own G-d, for years and years...and that he will not stop using his drug no matter how much 'blessed insight' he compiles. I suggest this is true based on my own experience and from what I keep seeing and hearing from guys again and again: people have an all-consuming desire to figure this thing out while still holding onto the option of using their drug. "I will only really let go of (surrender up) my right or option to have sex with myself once you fix this," we all say. And we are not evil. We are sincere. We are good people.

Toveil v'sheretz beyado, I call it. The 'tevilah' is: figuring it out so I can free myself, and the 'holding [of] the sheretz' is the fantasy that: no real surrender is necessary - that there is no absolute need for me to to give up my drug beforehand. So many of us go that way simply because we are deathly ashamed and afraid of letting go of our secret - so we need to fix it ourselves, quietly. We assume that is our 'avodas Hashem'.

But my calling for surrender first, taking real actions of opening up and doing whatever it takes to keep to it for today - seems silly to many folks. And as Guy puts it so well: it's basically insulting my intelligence! It recalls our old words: "Na'aseh v'nishma", no?

But there you may say, na'aseh v'nishma makes sense when talking to G-d! But here who are we talking to?! A bunch of addicts sharing their recovery and promising riches?

I will tell you who I think we are usually talking to and bargaining with, here:

Our god. Sweet orgasm. Sweet porn. All the sweet faces and figures we want and so deeply believe in our guts that we can't survive without..."you mean never again!? What? Are you insane? I can't possibly live without this stuff. It's what's beautiful and sweet about life. Life-giving. Sha'ashu'ai!" Do we not believe this at least as much as any of the Ani Ma'amins?

I am dead serious. We follow the sweetness of the image of the hot lady we see on the computer, at the supermarket, at shul, in the bed, wherever...because we are tied to it like dogs. We worship it and love it. Yep, it's love. It's the real deveikus - for us, no matter how frum we are nor how much we sincerely also cry at L'cho Dodi every Friday night. They co-exist. Ah, the miracle of the frum porn addict.

How could we ever seriously give it up even just for today? So we do not...even if we stop for a while.

Yes, sure - we can hold back for today, or for 10 days or whatever...but to honestly give it up even just for today? That's an entirely new ball-game. Guys here generally do not do that. Rather, they dig in, take a deep breath, misread "one day at a time", and think that holding their breath for a while is 'sobriety'. It isn't. Anyone can hold his or her breath for a while. But it's not much use cuz eventually you gotta breathe, no? It's just a matter of time. Anyone here interested in seeing how long we can hold our breath for and making a contest of it and call it 'chizzuk'? Not me.

I'll take giving it up for just today over that, anyday!

Do you understand me here, George (and Guy)? Or is this just gibberish? I'm pouring out my heart here.

Therapy and doing some real work to get free of some of the deep things that you are in real pain about will definitely help you a lot! Most of us probably need that, regardless. But if you are like many of us, the gift of therapy or pf figuring it out will not do us much good, if any, unless you and I surrender the right to lusting and are abstinent from it (our drug of choice) during that process.

Not a convenient suggestion, I know.

The self-honesty that Guy and George are sharing here with us is so rare, so precious!

I respectfully suggest that Guy is just too angry at the G-d he calls Hashem and demands Hashem to answer for His sins first . And I just as respectfully suggest that George just needs to remain in religious or intellectual control of the situation and understand it and know that he has gotten past the real pains he has before he takes what feels like an abysmal leap. These things may be a problem.

I am suggesting that neither approach has hachno'oh. And the 1st step of the 12 steps - the only one that has anything directly to do with not drinking/lusting+masturbating ourselves, is only one thing: hachno'oh to the truth about ourselves and agreeing to the implications of it. Hachno'oh is a different way of living for most of us...OK, for all of us.

"What are you talking about Hachno'oh for?," one may ask. "we have Hachno'oh aplenty, that's not our real problem at all."

Maybe...but Hachno'oh to whom? Well, when was the last time we were machniyah ourselves to the god we really worship (with our zippers down or our eyes peeled to follow the best naked people on the screen, again)? It has not been very long ago, maybe.

That god, I know very, very well, and could still serve it again with the hachno'oh I discovered as a wide-eyed 12 year old. I am an addict. That's what we do: switch gods at need. But I need a miracle today cuz I am willing to do anything to stay sober today and keep this great life and keep this G-d I found - and not all my own power nor all my own seichel will give it to me. Kinda sad, but true - still true. It's humility or humiliation. Perhaps that is what Rebbe Nachman meant when he used to say, "ader a nisayon, ader a bizayon."

Is this acceptance a bit insulting to myself? Maybe - but so is idiotically and desperately masturbating myself to orgasm again! A man in a suit and a beard, driven beyond all recall to faithfully and desperately do what he learned as a 12 year old. I find my drooling and masturbation very demeaning and insulting to myself...not much release of anger or much gaining respectability , there! I figure it is all about which kind of bozo do I want to be. A bozo on the sober bus, or a bozo on the same 'sexually enlightened' bus I have been riding since I was 12?

OK, how far has all that gotten us, so far?

I suggest to Guy and George (sounds like a rock band of the late 80's) that none of these issues you describe are new. They are probably your old buddies. So I think that going about it the 'angry' (Guy) or 'respectable' (George) way is just retrying the same tools you have been using till now. I am stubborn, too! You will surely get the same results you have been getting until now. GYE will not save you there, and neither will G-d (and not even the play-god will, apparently, or you would not be here searching for help in the first place! ). Both of you have been 'there and back again' so many times before already! So have I. Where does that get us? Same place it gets most of us: back on our knees masturbating and then having that old 'clarity' again, that painful 'clarity' of "Oooh, this time I really have to stop!", and pretending we have it all figured out, or need to. No?

Those feelings and that old game are just a crock.

Hatzlocha!!
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