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The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk
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Im Paga be’cha menuval zeh, mushchei'hu le- BEIS HAMEDRASH! This board is for divrei Torah relating to our struggle with the Yetzer Hara, from the entire spectrum of Tanach, Chazal, Mussar and Chassidus. On this board there will be no posts about personal struggles and no debates. Only TORAH CHIZUK.

TOPIC: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 76824 Views

Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 01 Jan 2017 21:33 #301739

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I like you, Mr trouble!!!

This is the quote from the email

Learning Torah for the Sitra Achara?!
By an anonymous GYE Member

I once saw a quote from Rav Shach, zatzal, (and later verified from someone who had heard him say it) that if the wife of a kollel yungerman wears short or tight-fitting clothes (and I suspect he would include some of the realistic and provocative sheitlach found today), then all the Torah the husband learns is going to the sitra achara


It would pass my esteemed approval if it was written as follows

Learning Torah for the Sitra Achara?!

If the wife of a kollel yungerman is encouraged by her husband to wear short or tight-fitting clothes then all the Torah the husband learns is going to the sitra achara.

Signed
Troublemaker#2
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Last Edit: 01 Jan 2017 21:34 by Markz.

Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 01 Jan 2017 21:50 #301743

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Thanks.

I like you as well.

Yes, I understand your revision. You addressed the second part of what I wrote. In the first part, I just pointed out that we are living in a time where many wives do not listen to their husband's requests for a variety of reasons.

As an aside, I would like my wife to dress more "with it," but in recovery mode, I have gotten over this (fingers crossed). On vacation today in one of the premier Torah cities in America, it would seem that my wife dresses in the minority, and the tight dresses, knees showing, long sheitilech, and dare I say - the stockings with lines on back (I do apologize for that; just writing that can excite me), many were being worn by kollel wives.
I'm all about that (substantial) bass, no trouble ....

Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 02 Jan 2017 01:55 #301760

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Tis a true problem.
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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 02 Jan 2017 02:08 #301761

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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 03 Jan 2017 17:35 #302044

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I~ it~ bit~ abit~ habit~ habitually: when I use to form a habit of vice. Every choice is apart of habit, and each choice can change that habit, The thought will become the ought, if I think often about it, Lust can be so powerful that it is the second thought toward it, that can often lead the rest of the way to the fall, we guard our eyes, the second look, bless Adoni, Amen, shall not be taken, this is my vow of vow~El. The vowel is what give meaning to the word, often verb determine past present and future. Hebrew meaning in word, and deed depends on the vowel. A vow of life dependent of living relationship with El, bless be He.
:pinch: Warning: Spoiler!

Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 29 Jan 2017 04:28 #304504

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Here's an interesting twist

Mussar doesn't necessarily keep a sexaholic sober, however it can help an addict reach a rock bottom which will startup his recovery

Rabbi Twersky on the Parsha - Va'era wrote:
If, due to pressure, the alcoholic stops drinking before he has reached his particular rock bottom, he generally relapses. Sustained recovery occurs only if the person has reached what was for him rock bottom etc...

We all have a bit of the alcoholics tendencies with in us.
If instead of simply making a promise not to lose control of our temper, we did some serious, persistent study of the mussar work on rage, until we felt so crushed by the evil of rage that this episode constituted a rock bottom, we could make the necessary character transformation so that we would not subsequently relapse. We should not need to wait for the tragic, destructive, rock bottom to bring us to our senses
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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 30 Jan 2017 11:40 #304581

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The implication here is that if we learn about how bad ZL is we will surely reach rock bottom and scream for teshuva..

I think it might create a LOT more guilt, but would that then push someone to rock bottom...

I'm not sure, it needs thought.
I am not sure how Dov would respond to this...
I like the concept from a middot point of view, but addiction isnt just breaking bad middot... so not sure..

Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 02 Feb 2017 17:49 #304822

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For Shovavim

mdmjerusalem wrote on 12 Jan 2009 13:31:
Halachacly, no fasting is allowed on Rosh Chodesh or 15th of Shvat (אורח חיים סימן תקע"ב)
Nevertheless our Guard is right about the whole concept of fasting.
Our rabbis have altered the way we atone for our wrongdoings
Preferably B’Simcha then B’Taanis
To skip breakfast or coffee in these days, decline your productivity, which is on the expense of your profession especially if you are a learner.

However we still have to break the Chomer to adjust our habits
We can achieve this by selecting one of the following methods:

1) Taanis Shoois :
Not to eat for the [any time limit] from when you get home
Not to eat anything from 6 to 8 in the evening

2) Taanis Haravid:
a) Put your utensil down between each bite
b) Don’t eat food in the method you enjoy it most (Like colder or warmer temperatures, or separate from the foods you like mixed etc.)

3) Taanis Dibur:
Not to speak “in any way” for a “period of time”.
Or, “a specific topic” for instance “Gaza war” for a day.
Or, to a specific individual, which whom you enjoy to schmooze with.

4) much more, you can envision them yourself

Warning: a Kabala ought to be personalized and small
Personalized subtract the routine from the thrust, divided by your aptitude, added to the main goal
Small even minute ones are usually tough enough since the kabala itself toughens the plight tenfold or more
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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 20 Feb 2017 13:42 #306252

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Powerful Powerlessness: Everything is in your hands; nothing is in your hands

Dov wrote on 23 Oct 2012 21:50:
I do not know where to post this sweet thing I read from Rav Avigdor Miller zt"l, but it applies so deeply to the recovery derech I was taught in 12 steps (SA) that I just had to post it somewhere:

Everything is in your hands; nothing is in your hands


We see that there are so many fronts on which a man has to constantly exert himself. He has to guard his health constantly. He has to constantly be on guard regarding his personal relations with people. He should be careful not to talk carelessly, to not become angry. He has to guard his finances.
Then, after doing all the things on his own behalf -- after trying his best to be healthy, to live peacefully with people, to have Parnassa (livelihood); after all these efforts -- he is expected to say to Hashem, "Everything comes from Your hand." [As we say in the Shemoneh Esrai three times a day,] "Baruch atah rofai cholai amo Yisrael, "You are the One Who keeps me well." [And right after that we say,] "You are the One Who gives me Parnassa."
That is the great test to which everyone is subjected. The loyal Jew has two different tracks, and he has to constantly think about both and maintain his equilibrium.
How do many people solve this problem? They do so by ignoring one or the other. They go about their business as if everything was in their own hands. They merely do lip service to the other principle. Or, in some rare cases, they trust in Hashem and do not do what is necessary for themselves. But the tzaddik is expected to do both things, and to do them perfectly and at the same time. One should not contradict the other or encroach on the province of the other...
Life is not simple at all. We are constantly between two forces. Our happiness is in our hands. All our relationships -- to our family, to society around us, to our employers, to our neighbors -- are in our hands. Our health is in our hands. At the same time, we have to understand that nothing is in our hands...
It is remarkable how much of our happiness depends on us. (Rav Avigdor Miller on Emunah and Bitachon)


Dedicated For The Refuah Shlemah Of Meir Leib ben Sarah


This is very close to how I live with the idea of powerlessness - yet taking responsibility for taking actions of recovery. Some mistakenly say that following the 12 steps means a risk that the addict may absolve himself of personal responsibility. It - recovery for an addict - is exactly like parnossah for all Jews. All in our hands and yet totally out of our hands.

Teshuvah does not need to be that way, as it can be all in our hands - but Teshuvah is not the way addicts get and live clean. Addicts who actually use the ideas in 12 steps do depend on G-d completely...but the steps are full of action! Just like Parnossah al pi din Torah. For addicts, recovery is completely in the realm of parnossah and health. It is about our survival in Olam hazeh - not about our Olam haboh. And we play the game that Rav Miller describes to the tee, one day at a time.

That is a very important distinction, I think. Thanks for helping me see that and write it here.
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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 22 Feb 2017 22:49 #306563

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Is understanding the halachic severity of the sin going to help us?
Dov wrote on 04 Feb 2010 23:39:

tshuvayid wrote on 04 Feb 2010 23:00:

I simply consider undertaking a genuine tshuva starts by understanding the mekoros and ikarim of these issues. It is not only MY opinion but many rishonim and baalei hamusar hold like this.
you can get rid of an issur and a bad habit by shaping your mind to understand and automatically being aware at all times of the harm caused by our deeds.

You are talking about what the sforim and ba'alei mussar say about teshuva. You know this already. Then why is the struggle so hard if you know this already? Hashem doesn't want this for you. So

don't do it.

You are a precious child of His and His personal project. Right? Each of us is.
So why do it? I'm not talking about what's right - I'm asking you about what's with you. Not what's with the Torah. You is what matters because the Torah is not looking at porn or masturbating. Get me?
Let's not play games, neither of us.
Teshuvah is b'ikar about what you have done. What does teshuva have to do with not doing it any more? I know, I know...it's supposed to affect the future...then what's your shayloh?
How about not doing it any more for two months. Then talk about teshuva.
Not so simple?
I'm not talking about addiction here - just about you.
What is the difference in the nature of the issur as far as stopping and staying stopped is concerned, if you agree it is not what your very best Friend ever wants for you?

I wish I had someone ask me this very question 20 years ago. Oh, how I wish it.
Hatzlocha sweet yid!
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Last Edit: 22 Feb 2017 22:51 by Markz.

Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 23 Feb 2017 05:51 #306594

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Markz wrote on 29 Jan 2017 04:28:
Here's an interesting twist

Mussar doesn't necessarily keep a sexaholic sober, however it can help an addict reach a rock bottom which will startup his recovery

Rabbi Twersky on the Parsha - Va'era wrote:
If, due to pressure, the alcoholic stops drinking before he has reached his particular rock bottom, he generally relapses. Sustained recovery occurs only if the person has reached what was for him rock bottom etc...

We all have a bit of the alcoholics tendencies with in us.
If instead of simply making a promise not to lose control of our temper, we did some serious, persistent study of the mussar work on rage, until we felt so crushed by the evil of rage that this episode constituted a rock bottom, we could make the necessary character transformation so that we would not subsequently relapse. We should not need to wait for the tragic, destructive, rock bottom to bring us to our senses


GrowStrong wrote on 30 Jan 2017 11:40:
The implication here is that if we learn about how bad ZL is we will surely reach rock bottom and scream for teshuva..

I think it might create a LOT more guilt, but would that then push someone to rock bottom...

I'm not sure, it needs thought.
I am not sure how Dov would respond to this...
I like the concept from a middot point of view, but addiction isnt just breaking bad middot... so not sure..


Rarely did I see ANYONE who's reason for stopping was because of the religious/aveira aspect be successful.

A rageholic can learn enough mussar and come to recognize that his life is unmanageable.
Learning about the chet of HZ"L and kedushas Hayesod is seldom sufficient to bring a person to such clarity.

As was famously said: If the Reishis Chochma would be readily available in the streets and the taavos were on the shelf in shul it would've been much easier;
The problem is that the Reishis Chochma is in Shul and we are confronted by taavos all day in the street......

Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 28 Feb 2017 18:39 #307062

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Singularity wrote on 28 Feb 2017 08:07:

I had a vort from last week's parsha, but I made it up so it might be complete bull, deal with me:

Hashem promises he's gonna take us into the land and wipe out all the other nations. Then he's all like, "Nah, I can't do it all in one year, because perhaps the animals of the field will outnumber you" and Rashi comments, "We're not as big as the other nations who 'fill out' the land".

I asked myself, "What BS is this!???"

Seriously? The nations who uphold and practice Avodah Zarah in our wake? In our midst? And right next to our Cheiders? Kill em all! Smash em down! who cares about some animals? Make arrows, for crying out loud! Hunt and kill! Surely it can't be worse than an atmosphere of idol worship? And especially for golden calf worshippers! We're gonna (and did) relapse!

I think the idea is that a change needs to be gradual. If you try knock it all out of you in one go, your mindspace will just be left barren and wasted, with anything to fill it. You'll be insane. 


Singularity posted this here

This question bothered me also. Sorry Singularity, I like the question more than the answer. The vort may or may not be emes but it doesn't answer the question satisfactorily for me.

Any other thoughts?
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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 28 Feb 2017 19:01 #307065

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eslaasos wrote on 28 Feb 2017 18:39:

Singularity wrote on 28 Feb 2017 08:07:

I had a vort from last week's parsha, but I made it up so it might be complete bull, deal with me:

Hashem promises he's gonna take us into the land and wipe out all the other nations. Then he's all like, "Nah, I can't do it all in one year, because perhaps the animals of the field will outnumber you" and Rashi comments, "We're not as big as the other nations who 'fill out' the land".

I asked myself, "What BS is this!???"

Seriously? The nations who uphold and practice Avodah Zarah in our wake? In our midst? And right next to our Cheiders? Kill em all! Smash em down! who cares about some animals? Make arrows, for crying out loud! Hunt and kill! Surely it can't be worse than an atmosphere of idol worship? And especially for golden calf worshippers! We're gonna (and did) relapse!

I think the idea is that a change needs to be gradual. If you try knock it all out of you in one go, your mindspace will just be left barren and wasted, with anything to fill it. You'll be insane. 



Singularity posted this here

This question bothered me also. Sorry Singularity, I like the question more than the answer. The vort may or may not be emes but it doesn't answer the question satisfactorily for me.

Any other thoughts?

Divrei Menachem
www.hebrewbooks.org/pagefeed/hebrewbooks_org_5765_156.pdf
מבואר בפי' חובת הלבבות ובפי' עקדה, אשר בעבודת השי״ת
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 אבל לא לקפוץ בפעם אחר כמה דרגות מכפי מה
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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 28 Feb 2017 19:11 #307066

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Thanks Mark, that's a good source for his vort, but it still doesn't answer his question which isn't referring to a person's mindspace but the land.
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Re: The Mark of Torah - Lust Chizuk 01 Mar 2017 07:47 #307133

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eslaasos wrote on 28 Feb 2017 19:11:
Thanks Mark, that's a good source for his vort, but it still doesn't answer his question which isn't referring to a person's mindspace but the land.

Is it not the same thing? They go into the land, smash all idols and heathens in one foul swoop and have all this stuff to build upon. What do they do? How do they go about it? It seems too sudden a change. Too much cutting off in one go. maybe the vast nothingness will make them go crazy. Maybe they'll be too full of themselves. Maybe learning to deal with eradicating something gradually will pay off more in the long run. And if they have all this land, this holy land, with no idea how to function on it, well, they'll mess it up. Much worse than them heathens were doin' what with they're buddhas 'n whatnot. such 'n such

And the chiddush is that a valiant leap of spirituality may be damaging even if it is to demolish that which is the biggest threat to said spirituality. Powerful stuff I think.
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