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What role do yeshivas play here?
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TOPIC: What role do yeshivas play here? 749 Views

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 19 Feb 2021 15:10 #363772

  • Shmuel
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OivedElokim wrote on 18 Feb 2021 21:20:

bego wrote on 18 Feb 2021 12:06:
Fascinating topic - thank you!

Is it possible to link this to the age old question of education from parents vs. education from school? I know some parents who think it's the school's responsibility to educate their children in ALL areas. I personally prefer to try my best as a parent. I'm sure I'll mess up, but at least I can only blame myself!

So I guess my view is Schools / yeshivas are for learning. Is it their responsibility to help boys struggling, yes. But it's limited as it's really fr the parents. 

​Also, is is possible that we (who struggle) are the minority and that actually, we shouldn't be introducing these ideas? Another old question. With my own sons I try to tread a middle path. We'll see how that goes. 

Spoke to a mechanech lately and he said the issue with smartphones and internet would be easily resolved if parents didn’t have their heads buried in the sand...
I’m paraphrasing...

With all due respect i think this mechanech needs to get his head out of the sound...
Don't get me wrong, im not advocating for smartphones but i do not think it will solve it... Sorry if im being disrespectful

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 19 Feb 2021 18:50 #363783

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I know the mechanech to be someone with a fair amount of his head in the sand. However it’s just his perspective and there’s truth to it. Parents are so clueless about this issue...
For the background to my name- see Tanya פרק טו.
״שההפרש בין עובד אלוקים לצדיק הוא שעובד הוא לשון הווה, שהוא באמצע העבודה״
-Oived Elokim means a constant work in progress...
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
- Arthur Ashe
“Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future”.

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Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 19 Feb 2021 18:52 #363784

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He was talking about the issue of boys having smartphones at home and in Yeshiva, open internet access etc. That is a big part of the issue for countless bochurim. 
For the background to my name- see Tanya פרק טו.
״שההפרש בין עובד אלוקים לצדיק הוא שעובד הוא לשון הווה, שהוא באמצע העבודה״
-Oived Elokim means a constant work in progress...
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
- Arthur Ashe
“Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future”.

My old thread

My current thread 

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 19 Feb 2021 19:25 #363788

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True,
But it is not the only thing. We dont know how to respond to boys sexual desires

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 19 Feb 2021 20:43 #363795

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That’s correct.

How would you suggest that be rectified?

Seems to me like the struggle and desires have to be validated. First and foremost.

Then tools have to be provided to contend with it. Like GYE. Like mentoring.

Just sharing my thoughts. 
For the background to my name- see Tanya פרק טו.
״שההפרש בין עובד אלוקים לצדיק הוא שעובד הוא לשון הווה, שהוא באמצע העבודה״
-Oived Elokim means a constant work in progress...
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
- Arthur Ashe
“Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future”.

My old thread

My current thread 

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 19 Feb 2021 20:43 #363796

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And mechanchim and parents need to get trained and educated themselves.
For the background to my name- see Tanya פרק טו.
״שההפרש בין עובד אלוקים לצדיק הוא שעובד הוא לשון הווה, שהוא באמצע העבודה״
-Oived Elokim means a constant work in progress...
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
- Arthur Ashe
“Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future”.

My old thread

My current thread 

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 19 Feb 2021 21:26 #363798

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OivedElokim wrote on 19 Feb 2021 20:43:
That’s correct.

How would you suggest that be rectified?

Seems to me like the struggle and desires have to be validated. First and foremost.

Then tools have to be provided to contend with it. Like GYE. Like mentoring.

Just sharing my thoughts. 

My opinion which is based on my expirence is that a child/teen needs to know that je can reach out/talk to adults about this. One of the ways that happens is if said adults stop acting as if these things dont exist. An example would be to stop skipping yehuda and tamar in class and other parts of torah that talk about these sensitive topics. The message it gives when its skipped is that its something adults cant talk about. It also causes a kid to investigate on his own and we all know where that ends up.

I think as a whole its about normalizing the topic TO AN EXTENT. If its never ever discussed in child/teen is hearing that the adults in his life cant/wont talk about this. Once that happens its downhill from there...
Last Edit: 19 Feb 2021 21:28 by Shmuel.

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 20 Feb 2021 23:09 #363806

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Shmuel wrote on 19 Feb 2021 21:26:

OivedElokim wrote on 19 Feb 2021 20:43:
That’s correct.

How would you suggest that be rectified?

Seems to me like the struggle and desires have to be validated. First and foremost.

Then tools have to be provided to contend with it. Like GYE. Like mentoring.

Just sharing my thoughts. 

My opinion which is based on my expirence is that a child/teen needs to know that je can reach out/talk to adults about this. One of the ways that happens is if said adults stop acting as if these things dont exist. An example would be to stop skipping yehuda and tamar in class and other parts of torah that talk about these sensitive topics. The message it gives when its skipped is that its something adults cant talk about. It also causes a kid to investigate on his own and we all know where that ends up.

I think as a whole its about normalizing the topic TO AN EXTENT. If its never ever discussed in child/teen is hearing that the adults in his life cant/wont talk about this. Once that happens its downhill from there...

I can't see this as being the solution. 
This would only show a kid that these subjects do exist in a normal adult life. It will not tell him that it's OK to discuss your desires and urges with your parents /reb I. The problem could be made worse if this would encourage him to try discussing it and be turned off/be made felt awful because the adult wasn't prepared to explain and help. 
The adult figure in this discussion would have to have the conversation properly prepared and if every reb I just starts teaching these subjects without being ready/able to take it further it could potentially make it worse. 
This discussion could take place without every subject being studied by every rebbi, but rather having one specially chosen rebbi being available to 11-12 year old or something like that. 

I'm not saying this is a solution, just that I think this probably is a more practical way along your lines (which I think has a lot of cracks along the lines of how to get kids to trust this adult etc) 
The start of 'STARting' is 'star'. Just start and you're a star!!
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Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 21 Feb 2021 14:18 #363856

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starting wrote on 20 Feb 2021 23:09:

Shmuel wrote on 19 Feb 2021 21:26:

OivedElokim wrote on 19 Feb 2021 20:43:
That’s correct.

How would you suggest that be rectified?

Seems to me like the struggle and desires have to be validated. First and foremost.

Then tools have to be provided to contend with it. Like GYE. Like mentoring.

Just sharing my thoughts. 

My opinion which is based on my expirence is that a child/teen needs to know that je can reach out/talk to adults about this. One of the ways that happens is if said adults stop acting as if these things dont exist. An example would be to stop skipping yehuda and tamar in class and other parts of torah that talk about these sensitive topics. The message it gives when its skipped is that its something adults cant talk about. It also causes a kid to investigate on his own and we all know where that ends up.

I think as a whole its about normalizing the topic TO AN EXTENT. If its never ever discussed in child/teen is hearing that the adults in his life cant/wont talk about this. Once that happens its downhill from there...

I can't see this as being the solution. 
This would only show a kid that these subjects do exist in a normal adult life. It will not tell him that it's OK to discuss your desires and urges with your parents /reb I. The problem could be made worse if this would encourage him to try discussing it and be turned off/be made felt awful because the adult wasn't prepared to explain and help. 
The adult figure in this discussion would have to have the conversation properly prepared and if every reb I just starts teaching these subjects without being ready/able to take it further it could potentially make it worse. 
This discussion could take place without every subject being studied by every rebbi, but rather having one specially chosen rebbi being available to 11-12 year old or something like that. 

I'm not saying this is a solution, just that I think this probably is a more practical way along your lines (which I think has a lot of cracks along the lines of how to get kids to trust this adult etc) 

This is a real concern! Its a very sensitive thing and needs to be done with sechel. However, i believe that the issue of teachers and parents not knowing how to  discuss these topics with the correct sensitivity can also be rectified with "normalizing" the conversation!!
I Believe we wilk never break out if the circle unless we breakout of the circle. How can we as adults know how to have the conversation if it is a conversation that was never had? By having the conversation. And yes the beginning will be hard and awkward for some (many) but once its more "normal" conversation we will ALL get better at it and ALL gain children, teens amd ADULTS!!

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 22 Feb 2021 04:10 #363922

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i hear your opinion, but when i made the original post for this topic i was not suggesting that these discussions should necessarily be done in a public setting in detail. I believe that it is up to the yeshivas to address it, that could mean in private or that rabbeim should find a way to help out bachurim another way. To avoid it entirely in my opinion is foolish. 

And to say that rabbeim "by and large know whats going on" what good does that do if the bachurim are still struggling and yeshivas are taking the same approach as they did for the last 100 years. 

I dont know what the answer is but clearly something has to change in a serious way, the challenges are getting harder and help is needed for bachurim more than ever. 

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 22 Feb 2021 17:38 #363952

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Thank you. 
You reminded me of a joke (its almost Purim)
A father ran to the Rabbi and screaed " Rabbi, You must help my boy! Hes insane, He wants to kiss girls and eat pork! RL! you must give him a brucha to help him! 
So the Rabbi said " If he would be asking to Kiss pork and eat girls, he would be insane.... now hes just human........

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 22 Feb 2021 17:47 #363954

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I would like to share my thoughts and experience on this matter. 

The first problem is that in the beginning when boys start having these desires, they don't know what it is and therefore don't know how to handle it, then it continues and can turn into an addiction and all different kinds of perverted ways. If a smart Rabbi is aware he can easily tell whihc boys are starting to struggle and can talk to them privatlye and explain a bit that this is someting tats normal but is better off left for latter in life and not to think too much about it, maybe give some ideas how to disctract themselfs, the  main thing is to teach them boys how dangerous this could be if taken the wrong path... 

Then there are kids with serious problems that will need professional help. but most kids can be saved by a smart and aware rabbi that knows a little bit about these issues. 

One thing is for sure, if we would do this, then there would be a lot less boys that grow up with SSA. Im 100% positive about that.  

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 22 Feb 2021 18:14 #363955

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chancy wrote on 22 Feb 2021 17:38:
Thank you. 
You reminded me of a joke (its almost Purim)
A father ran to the Rabbi and screaed " Rabbi, You must help my boy! Hes insane, He wants to kiss girls and eat pork! RL! you must give him a brucha to help him! 
So the Rabbi said " If he would be asking to Kiss pork and eat girls, he would be insane.... now hes just human........

I love this story.
I recently told this to a 15 year old Bochur...
For the background to my name- see Tanya פרק טו.
״שההפרש בין עובד אלוקים לצדיק הוא שעובד הוא לשון הווה, שהוא באמצע העבודה״
-Oived Elokim means a constant work in progress...
Start where you are. Use what you have. Do what you can.
- Arthur Ashe
“Every saint has a past, and every sinner has a future”.

My old thread

My current thread 

Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 13 Apr 2021 00:08 #366738

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Can't believe I missed this discussion when it happened.

To add in my two cents - I don't think relying on a smart rabbi to speak privately to bachurim will help as you need to have a really perceptive rebbi and there are really not many of those (I personally don't know any who would qualify). I don't think that was the intention of the person who said it just wanted to point that out.

Ive thought a lot about my future of being a parent (currently a bochur) and thinking that there will be no television and no smartphone/computer access until absolutely necessary. Is that crazy? Society says yes but realize they managed without these things until 30 years ago, I'm sure we can manage too. Even before I started really struggling I thought they were a waste of time but now I realize that they are that but also teach stuff to your children that should not be taught - has a bad influence.

I was just reading "Dear Rabbi Dear Doctor" (Rabbi Twerski) and the TV idea came up and he discussed it so this was on my mind. To expound on what I said before if you sit a kid in front of a TV/electronics for 8-10 hours a day you have allowed the electronics to take your place as an educator. 4-7 hours and its still a very harmful influence that will likely at the least turn into an addiction to technology which causes all sorts of problems (I know soooooo many people that literally cannot look up from their phone! At the table in the beis in the bathroom in bed while moving around etc.) 1-3 hours you can make an argument for to give the parent a break but its just so harmful the things that come up come up with a better activity. Play a board game or a sport or a puzzle or read a book or play an instrument or something. Also Youtube is interchangeable with television if not worse. 

Obviously I may be hopelessly naive because I am yet to be a parent. I just know in my family in particular and the problems we are going through if I asked my parents if 20 years back they could decide to have no electronics in the house and give everyone kosher phones I can't guarantee they would say yes (because they themselves are heavily dependent) but they would at least consider it because of all the trouble we have gone through.

I think mzl/porn was always an issue (maybe porn less so) but theres a reason that theres so many people affected now that its been dubbed "The battle of the generation" and thats because of the devices. So why follow society? Just because everyone else does it? Absolutely ridiculous! I'm not saying this would get rid of the issue altogether but at least bring it down to a scale where its less people scarred from seeing things no one should have to see. Its one thing to see an innapropriately dressed woman on the street or a sign or banner or whatever but another to see images intended to arouse. 

I personally aspire to go into chinuch (I love learning Torah and theres so many areas that I felt lacking in my education, first and foremost Simchas Hatorah and the passion that should come with it but instead it didn't feel different than math or biology or you name it - just a regular class with tests etc.) and definitely plan on addressing this issue
Think about how good you'll feel if you say no to desire and compare that to how bad you'll feel if you say yes.

Desire is unique in the way that it is never fulfilled -  if you give in the desire comes back even more powerful in just a few days. Telling yourself that its ok because this is really the last time doesn't work because you are just adding new images to your head that will cause future falls.

The Joy of triumph over the yetzer hara is worth the effort it takes to win. It IS worth it! Keep fighting!


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Re: What role do yeshivas play here? 13 Apr 2021 06:02 #366758

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I heard a rabbi for at-risk teens once say to his "boys": "For years, I defended you and allowed you to blame everyone. Your parents who didn't care, your uncle who molested you, your school that kicked you out, etc. But, at a certain point, you have to get up off your behind and ask yourself what YOU are going to do with your life."
We have all been dealt a heavy hand. Whether it's our marriage, our schools, or everyone around us. The question we have to ask ourselves is what WE are going to do about it. And I think that is how we have to educate our kids too. They need to know that no matter what their yeshivos deal with or don't, they can ask any question they want from us without fear of being put down, and we can say "I don't know" and then go find an answer.


I am not sure if that is particularly helpful advice to give to at-risk teens who are already struggling... 
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