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From a deep pit to a tall roof
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A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.

TOPIC: From a deep pit to a tall roof 95397 Views

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 01 Jul 2013 19:06 #210874

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Chassidsher Sefarim guy: You could have just brought the gemara in Nedarim...
?דער באשעפער לאווט מיך אייביג. וויפיל לאוו איך עהם
My Creator loves me at all times. How great is my love for him?

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 02 Jul 2013 01:10 #210963

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Pidaini wrote:
Dov wrote:
I tried to suggest to anyone using Taphsic that anything they make a vow on has to be a thing that is essentially MUTAR (permitted to normals). For we are already mushba v'omeid m'har Sinai on anything that is really ASSUR. So why bother making a vow on aveiros at all?


I just found this,

מדרש רבה ויקרא פרשה כג פסקה יא
(יא) אמר ר' יוסי שלשה הן שתקף יצרן עליהם ונשבעו לו יוסף דוד ובועז יוסף מנין שנאמר (בראשית לט) ואיך אעשה הרעה הגדולה רב הונא בשם ר' אידי אמר כלום המקרא חסר וחטאתי לה' אין כתיב כאן אלא לאלהים נשבע ליצרו ואמר לאלהים אני חוטא ואיני עושה הרעה הגדולה דוד מנין שנאמר (ש"א כו) ויאמר דוד חי ה' כי אם ה' יגפנו למי נשבע רבי יוחנן ורשב"ל ר"י אמר ליצרו נשבע וריש לקיש אמר לאבישי נשבע א"ל חי ה' אם תגע בו אני מערב דמך בדמו הה"ד (שם) ויאמר דוד אל אבישי אל תשחיתהו בועז מנין שנאמר (רות ג') חי ה' שכבי עד הבקר רבי יודן ורבי חמא ר' יודן אומר כל אותו הלילה היה יצרו מפתהו בדברים ואומר לו את פנוי והיא פנויה אתה מבקש אשה והיא מבקשת איש ליצר הרע נשבע חי ה' ולאשה אמר שכבי עד הבקר א"ר חנינא (משלי כד) גבר חכם זה בועז ואיש דעת מאמץ כח שגבר על יצרו בשבועה:

ספר אורח לחיים - פרשת מטות
איש כי ידור נדר לה' או השבע שבועה לאסור איסר על נפשו וכו' (ל, ג). מה שאמר כפל, ידור נדר השבע שבועה. אפשר לומר דרבותינו ז"ל דרשו בנדרים דף ט"ז (ע"ב) שהנדרים חלין על דבר מצוה, ממה שאמר נדר לה', אף על פי שנוגע לה' חל הנדר, לכך אמר כפל ידור נדר, האחד מורה על נדר שאינו נוגע לה', ואחר כך נדר לה' אף על פי שנוגע לה' חל הנדר:
ומה שאמר השבע שבועה כפל, אפשר לומר שמצינו שבועה אצל בועז (רות ג, יג) חי ה' שכבי עד הבוקר, ונשבע נגד יצרו שלא יעבור עבירה. וכן מצינו שאמר דוד המלך ע"ה (תהלים קיט, קו) נשבעתי ואקיימה וכו'. ובשני מיני שבועות שמצינו שנכון לישבע עליהם, כשהיצר מתגבר לעבור על מצות לא תעשה של נדה שבועז נשבע עליו, או לקיים משפטיו היינו מצות עשה שדוד ע"ה נשבע עליהם, ובשניהם הוא מושבע ועומד מהר סיני, הן לקיים מצות עשה הן שלא לעבור על מצות לא תעשה ח"ו. אבל אם נשבע לבטל המצוה אינו חל. וזהו שאמר או השבע שבועה, כלומר על דבר שהוא שבועה מכבר מושבע ועומד מהר סיני, כנ"ל:


Is it a סתירה?


Its not a stira You are both right!!
as far as I remember eventhough shvuas are not chal on a dvar mitzva. That onlty means that no issurim are chal. However a person can make such a shvua to be mechazeck himself. Because a shvua has an effect (psychological?) even if there are no issurim involved. Prove is that even even a Goy is scared to lie under oath... But yes because of mushba veomed there are no "real" issurim chal. (Like malkes etc.)

See Minchas Chinuch for more info

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 02 Jul 2013 01:30 #210965

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Well, perhaps these things would have just been issurim for them based on their madreiga, as the Chaza"l say the novi refers to Chofni and Pinchas as having slept with many hundreds of married women when in fact they just delayed them from going to the mikvah to join with their own husbands. Note that Yosef was before mattan Torah and thus was of course never 'mushbah v'omeid mhar Sinai', at all. And perhaps the 'issur niddah' of Boaz was similarly just an abizraya l'arayos and not an issur Torah. Just possibilities.

But the real point is this:

Why bother making a sh'vuah on something that you and I must not do anyway? I say that making that the battle ground, shows that the person really wants to avoid facing the fact that all the 'fun' stuff before it has got to stop, for any real hope of success.

Does anyone get what I'm saying here?

The Taphsic needs to be done on the 'MUTAR' things, that lead the guy to end up having to sin with wasting sperm - not on the sperm-wasting itself! Things like being meyached with his mother's or wife's unfiltered (or filtered) computer. Things like following a pretty woman for a second look while shopping in the supermarket. Things like pressuring his wife for sex or fantasizing about having sex with his wife (or anyone else).

Things like these are things that may have some issur involved but that telling ourselves that never stops us in the end anyhow, and we keep on doing them until we come to 'need' sex with ourselves! The fact that he can see how it is an aspect of lo sasuru doesn't really mean anything to the guy. If it's not an issur kareis or something, guys like that typically do not take these things seriously enough - without a shvuoh!

That's the only thing I think Taphsic may help with, at all: Drawing the battle lines backward.

For most guys, it's not the sperm-wasting that is the real problem - that is just the thing that gets their attention. Rather, the real problem is the little, frequent, and sweet lusting behaviors we do all through the day that are the problem. Taphsicing them may be the only thing of value, I figure.
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 02 Jul 2013 02:05 #210968

Dov wrote:

...Does anyone get what I'm saying here?


Yes, I do. Turns out that I have somewhere in my pocket a reminder of some vows that I made, to keep my distance. These are a couple of 'fences' that I need to avoid crossing. But interestingly, I usually do not even remember what all those things are. I simply avoid anything that remotely smells like lust. In the olden times, after making my vows, I would study my list carefully to see what 'loopholes' are not included. And then I would wonder how come I ended up slipping and falling in spite of all my vows. But then I learned (the hard way) that vows in themself will not work (even when the knas is $3000 a shot) if at the same timw we are lusting here and there. We need to 'surrender our lust' and start concentrating on normal ways of living. After a (relatively short) while we come to realize that there is more to life than being obsessed with lust, or with being obsessed with fighting lust. We need to ignore the distraction of lust and concentrate on 'real' life. It's much more geshmak - it's worth trying.

MT

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 02 Jul 2013 02:19 #210971

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Personally, I found that making a Shvua on the actual act of m*** itself didn't work (eg if I m*** without doing certain things I will pay x amount to tzedaka). What did work though was making a shvua on things using my computer when no one else is home- eg If I do use it I will say 50 perakim of tehillim that same day. That worked well.
Life’s a mountain. You just gotta keep climbing…

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 02 Jul 2013 02:28 #210973

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Wow, we have some talmidei chachomim here. I should learn more.

For me, the purpose of the taphsic is not to re-enforce how bad the aveiroh is but to give me a knas that affects me today. Knowing that I will be in the kaf hakela for every drop of sperm I waste doesn't affect me when urges come. Knowing that I will have to spend a few hours of my free time saying tehillim does affect me.

Dov has a point though. What happened last week only happened because I allowed myself to watch a few minutes of porn. I told myself that I would not masturbate. I touched myself for a very short amount of time and remembered the taphsic. There followed a few minutes where I was touching myself a bit but trying to stop myself because of the taphsic. After 27 days of not touching at all, my zerah came quicker than I thought and I lost the battle. Had it taken longer for the zerah to come I believe I would have had the time to overcome the urge and stop myself in the middle, before the major damage was done, in which case technically I would have won. I think Dov's point is that that is not much of a win at all. It's a technical knock-out, it doesn't mean I'm better. If I wouldn't have been motzi I wouldn't have got the knas but I still did a massive aveiroh, and I have no excuse for it. I would have come on here and posted about how my yetzer nearly got the better of me and I need to be mechazek, and I wouldn't have thought too much more about the aveiroh that happened anyway.

But, the point is this, when the yetzer came I didn't just give in, I struggled with it as long as I could. Not because I'm a tzaddik, not because I don't want to go to hell, but because I can't be bothered to say all of sefer tehillim.

The fact is there were a few moments in the last month or so when I had urges but I controlled them because I don't want the knas. Of course I know that there's a better reason, but that's the reason that speaks to me during these times.

It isn't just looking at porn or masturbating that the taphsic affects. I didn't even peek at porn or at scantily clad women, or fantasise about porn, or stare at women in a lustful way, or anything that I'm ashamed of in fact. I've never felt so clean. That was because I know that if I start down that road I will end up watching porn and masturbating. It's a pattern I know so well it's practically a certainty. And I still don't want to say all of tehillim, therefore I avoid thinking about porn as well. so in my opinion, taphsic helps a lot.

It also helped me get back up quicker. Normally I rationalise that since I just fell and I'm on day 0 anyway, I might as well do it a few more times before I try again. But with taphsic, 5 minutes after the last fall is the same as a week later, a month later or a year later.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 02 Jul 2013 13:32 #210985

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Avrom wrote:

Its not a stira You are both right!!
as far as I remember eventhough shvuas are not chal on a dvar mitzva. That onlty means that no issurim are chal. However a person can make such a shvua to be mechazeck himself. Because a shvua has an effect (psychological?) even if there are no issurim involved. Prove is that even even a Goy is scared to lie under oath... But yes because of mushba veomed there are no "real" issurim chal. (Like malkes etc.)

See Minchas Chinuch for more info

יש קצת סתירת הר"ן בזה, ופלא בדברי הטור סי' רט"ו שלא הביא לדברי הרא"ש בזה, ועי' קרבן נתנאל ריש מס' נדרים, והנה יש שטיקעל תורה על זה מהגר"ש שקופ שחיוב המצוה הכללית ניתוסף בו שיעור פרטית ואכ"מ להאריך בכל זה

ועכ"פ הדבר ברור דנשבעין לקיים המצוות כדאמר דוד נשבעתי ואקיימה
?דער באשעפער לאווט מיך אייביג. וויפיל לאוו איך עהם
My Creator loves me at all times. How great is my love for him?
Last Edit: 02 Jul 2013 13:34 by TehillimZugger. Reason: להוסיף שיטה אחרונה

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 03 Jul 2013 05:44 #211069

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May Hashem help us have self-honesty, Amen. That's all we really need, and it is rare. I hardly ever have it, I think. So pray for me with you, please. No shvuos are needed for that!

Love you goofballs!
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 05 Jul 2013 13:34 #211315

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For a while now, I stopped all my taphsik shavous that involved the act itself. (Reasons above) BUT I did make one big one instead: Its to prevent myself from watching movies. Watching movies is my biggest trigger. Besides all the women - I get a empty feeling - that only craves to be filled with more movies and porn.
So 6 weeks ago, I made a Neder, that for every 10 minutes that I watch a movie, by myself, I have to give 40$ to tzedakka. My life has been so much more productive. The fall that I did have, didn't turn into a "mega-fall" - because it wasn't worth to escape to the movie world.. This neder terminates Rosh Chodesh ("Please Hashem give me strength to renew it!!)

I think this is a productive "taphsik" Lekulei Alma!!

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 05 Jul 2013 16:46 #211318

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That is the perfect (and I believe the only legitimate) use for sh'vuos! This way you will find more and more hatzlocha on this derech.

Furthermore, there is the other factor nobody here has mentioned yet:

Gayvoh!

It is arrogant that we make sh'vuos davka on the 'big thing' - the big challenge, bichlal. For in doing so, we are pretending to G-d and to ourselves that we've 'got the little things under control'. For goodness' sake! As Avrom demonstrates beautifully right here, the real and precious growth is not in the glitzy, show-offy, and madreigo-crowned achievement of 'beating' porn and masturbation. It is in the small things that lead us there.

And that is not just because they technically end up with us needing to have sex with ourselves, but rather because this kind of sh'vuoh is based on humble acceptance of the truth. The truth is that it is no coincidence that we play with the edges of erotic stuff ...and eventually end up with the sex with self (masturbation, or 'M**' here on GYE). Rather, the playing we do demonstrates what we truly value. It shows what direction we really want to go! It's nothing but foreplay for masturbation (sex with self). Don't we all know that?

Humbly accepting that it is the precursors to our acting out that we need to give up, is just facing the truth. That is why it will be blessed with hatzlocha, I think.

Hope that was clear.

Continued hatzlocha Avrom!
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 05 Jul 2013 17:49 #211334

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Hi Dov,

Thanks so much for that post. I am still a newbie and have been following you around from the start. I am trying to absorb and apply as much as possible. YOU have a lot to offer. Thanks for your insights.
I have been wanting to ask what your picture and subtitle meant (Baby-steps; Easy does it.) I think this post clarifies it. I really relate to that. I like the way you call the BIG THINGS - gayvah. I am going to try to apply that properly. And thanks for clarifying that masturbation is just "sex with self". There is something about that statement that sends shivers down my spine and puts my terrible behavior pattern into perspective.
I am wondering what advice you have for taking that first steps. The idea of just applying filters and blocking off every possible intrusion of porn and sex and lust is just not possible and distracting from the real problem. The same of just making some neder/shavua (as is topic here). I feel it is a good way for me to pat myself on the back for doing the "right thing" only to find myself feeling deprived of my basic needs (porn and masturbation, which have its similarities of feeling hungry and thirsty), and then succumbing to the lust because for some crazy rationalization tactic with self. I can't find the true way of hitting the issue on head. I have accepted the fact that I am sick and need help. But I am unsure as to how to start addressing it. If you have any advice, please help. [sorry, for hijacking this forum]

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 05 Jul 2013 17:53 #211335

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I hope dov comes to answer, but in the meantime, you can check out the dov quotes thread. I have a link to it in my signature. It is pretty comprehensive.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 05 Jul 2013 18:17 #211346

Avrom wrote:
...This neder terminates Rosh Chodesh ("Please Hashem give me strength to renew it!!)...


Advice from an experienced loser: If you'll wait until the last minute to renew your neder, there's a 'very' good chance that you will not renew it (happened to me so many many times). It's your subconscious YH lurking to pounce on you at the first opportunity. It may help to make an additional neder obligating you to renew it at least 1 day before it expires.

Hatzlacha

MT
Last Edit: 05 Jul 2013 18:18 by Machshovo Tova.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 05 Jul 2013 18:48 #211352

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gibbor120 wrote:
I hope dov comes to answer, but in the meantime, you can check out the dov quotes thread. I have a link to it in my signature. It is pretty comprehensive.

thanks! very helpful. i will try to work those quotes.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 05 Jul 2013 19:01 #211354

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Dov wrote:
it is no coincidence[/i] that we play with the edges of erotic stuff ...and eventually end up with the sex with self (masturbation, or 'M**' here on GYE). Rather, the playing we do demonstrates what we truly value. It shows what direction we really want to go! It's nothing but foreplay for masturbation (sex with self). Don't we all know that?


I'm not disagreeing with you but I think my case might be different. I very rarely ''play with the edges of erotic stuff.'' I find myself either totally clean from all erotic material or falling fully. I try very hard to dismiss erotic thoughts quickly because I know if I start fantasising the fall is inevitable.

My problem is that I get sudden overwhelming urges and go straight for the porn. I tell myself I'll just watch for a minute but I know it's a lie and I'll end up masturbating but when the urges hit me I just do it anyway.

The taphsic has helped me at those times because I'd already started watching porn and remember that it would save me hours of tehillim time if I just say tehillim 6. While saying tehillim 6 I'm essentially saying to Hashem ''Hashem I am ill, I have a sickness and I can't get better by myself. But i want to be better, please accept my tefilah.'' That never fails to calm me down and get me to re-assess what I was doing. sometimes I fall anyway as the urges come back after a few minutes and I've already done the taphsic but I'm doing much better with it than without it.

So I should make a taphsic on watching any porn and I'm thinking it over because I don't want to end up breaking shevuas as well as masturbating.

And that is why my taphsic is only on masturbation, firstly because the urges that get me aren't grown from watching TV or any 'muttar' thing that I need to avoid. They come charging fully at me, no-holds-barred, telling me to watch porn. Secondly because if I made a taphsic on 'smaller' things I would end up breaking a lot of them and then the taphsic would become useless to me. Less is more. It's not arrogance to make a taphsic only on the big thing, it's not me saying I have the little things under control. quite the opposite, it's because I don't have the little things under control that taphsic would be ineffective.
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