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From a deep pit to a tall roof
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A platform of recovery for Jews who find themselves struggling with addictions to pornography, masturbation or other sexual problems. Post anonymously about your struggles without fear of anyone finding out who you are. Ask questions, post answers and be inspired! Get tips and guidance from the experts who moderate this forum, as well as from fellow strugglers.

TOPIC: From a deep pit to a tall roof 87405 Views

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 20 Jun 2013 17:48 #209842

  • mr. emunah
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You think so,
I've had it happen at least 5 or 6 times...

you can never let yor guard down

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 20 Jun 2013 19:01 #209848

  • needtoquit
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Dr.Watson wrote:
Day 1

Well it's been 3 weeks since I last fell and I've experienced no urges during this time. B''H things are good at home, I'm learning, I'm well, everything's great.

And that's worrying me. If this a trick? am I being led along a path with no difficulties to give me a false sense of security, and then when I relax, bam! It will hit me from nowhere and I won't even see it coming. It will knock me right off my comfortable perch. And the longer this nice easy path goes on for, the more frustrated and disheartened I'll be if it happens.

Am I crazy to think like this?

Great. B"H you've been doing well.

Yes. At least in my long and painful experience, I have found it to be the case. It is one of the Yetzer Hara's favorite tricks, the surprise attack followed quickly (if we CV"S fall) by the guilt trip.

I recently was listening to The Shmuz (#42, #43 or #44 don't remember which but all are really good and nogeah to us) and he describes these voices in one's head. They all have "our" "voice" however, they are really the Y"H, the nefesh habahami, and finally the nefesh hasichally, the true us. They all sound the same but are saying very different things. And we need to recognize that the one saying, "You haven't done anything wrong in so long. Why not just do it this once?" is the same one who if we fall will be telling us, "You shagitz! You did that thing! You haven't done that in so long, and now you ruined it! You ruined your life! Just give up, it's over!" And of course that is the Y"H. He says both of those things, it's a 1-2 punch.... But only if we fall. If we can recognize him as soon as he starts talking we can save ourselves.

(Un)fortunately, that risk is what we will most likely have to live with for the rest of our days. But the "Un" is in parenthesis because while the struggle is hard, very hard, the reward for the effort and the growth because of it is unimaginable.

But, if we do fall we also have to remember that each of those days had (and continues to have, even after the fall) tremendous value in it of itself. The 90 days chart doesn't just count the streak but also the total days.

So basically, no, I don't think you are crazy. But just keep up the good work and don't worry to much about the future, just today.

Hatzlacha to us all!
Last Edit: 20 Jun 2013 19:04 by needtoquit. Reason: Formatting

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 23 Jun 2013 04:05 #210022

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Day 1 of course

B''H I had urges on erev shabbos. Quite disgustingly it was triggered by something in a book about the holocaust of all things. It's absolutely shameful. B''H I remembered my taphsic which is to say tehillim 6 slowly and with kavonoh, but I was reading on the toilet so I couldn't say tehillim, so I couldn't do the aveiroh either because I don't want the big knas.

So b''H I've been reminded that I still have a problem and it is still day 1 and I have work to do.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 23 Jun 2013 10:40 #210035

  • cordnoy
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I know that feeling
You give in after trying
And then you think that you will never kick it

When that happens to me, I feel worthless and low as well

I get more confident after a while, but the immediate feeling is just that

Thanks
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 27 Jun 2013 02:22 #210509

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OK, I have some bad news and some good news. The bad news is that I fell. The good news is that it was after 27 days, which is my second best run. It was also very quick, not a sustained binge. Thirdly, Although the taphsic was not successful in stopping me the first time, it has altered my usual pattern.

Previously whenever I fell I always felt that since the day was a 'fallen' day anyway I might as well get it all out of my system and do the aveiroh a few times. Of course that never really gets it out of my system, it just makes it harder to get back up.

However, this time when I felt like doing the aveiroh again, I thought that since my taphsic didn't say anything about falling more than once, if I did fall twice I will have to say all of sefer tehillim twice. Boy I don't want to have to do that. So the only two options were 1 - to say tehillim 6 slowly and with kavonoh, knowing that I was only doing it to make it easier to fall, or 2 - not do it again. Even though I still have the urge to fall again, I honestly cannot bring myself to say tehillim as a way of getting out of my knas. I just can't, b''H I'm not that much of a roshoh. So I'm left with option 2, not falling again. It's uncomfortable, I don't feel like the fall I had satisfied my urge, but I feel proud to be uncomfortable because it's the right thing to do.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 27 Jun 2013 02:43 #210511

  • reallygettingthere
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Think of how many times you said no to the yetzer hora during the past 27 days!

KOMT!
Roy in the SA White Book noted that we frequently prayed and it did not work...because the best we could muster was begging G-d to "Please take it away, so I will not have to give it up!

No amount of sobriety can cure the insanity -ChaimCharlie

The emmes hurts but fake chizzuk will hurt more -Bards

Remember, best block, no be there - Mr. Miyagi

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 27 Jun 2013 02:48 #210513

  • cordnoy
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wow!
as this is the first time ive heard this happen since I was on, it really shakes me.
kol hakavod for contoling yourself further, and im sorry for the first time.

I never fully understood the nuclear reset button, but wasn't it predicated on the fact that usually a person falls once, and then somewhat the urge is satisfied? I guess every person is different.

as im typin I remember recently when I sinned twice in one day.

once was thru computer devices; the other was more real.

anyway, doc, please say strong; we need your critical eye on us; in my short time here, you keep me in check, and im sure others feel the same way.

chazak to you and to us all
My email: thenewme613@hotmail.com
My threads:
GYE Handbook | Gibbor's Insights | GYE FAQ - Thanks Skep and DMS123456789 White Book | Big Book (Alcoholics Anonymous)

If one gives up at the first sign of a struggle, he is really not ready to be successful."
"Tryin' and doin' are two different thin's - tryin' is hopin'; doin' is succeedin'.
"The right thin' to do and the hard thin' to do are usually the same."


Disclaimer: I am not a cheerleader; B"H, there are many on the site. I am here to change myself, and with God's help, by some mistake, I might even help change others.

MY POSTS ARE NOT WRITTEN AS A MODERATOR UNLESS EXPLICITLY STATED.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 27 Jun 2013 15:07 #210527

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I've had bad urges all morning and I very nearly fell again. I went looking for some pictures, not properly pornographic but still bad, and looked at them for a while which of course gave me even worse urges. I knew I needed to do taphsic so I said tehillim 6 and felt like maybe I would fall maybe I wouldn't. anyway soon after that I needed the toilet and I had a massive urge to use my hand for the most disgusting thing and I very nearly did. I rationalised that I need to get it out of my system or I'll never get over the urge.

Then it occurred to me that I have an opportunity to be better this time than ever before. I've never before successfully defeated follow-on urges from a recent fall. I felt that if I could do it now I will have gone a long way in making substantial progress. I would no longer have the pattern of '3 or 4 weeks on 1 week off, 3 or 4 weeks on 1 week off' and instead be someone who occasionally falls but when he does it's an isolated incident, not more than that.

So I decided to count to a hundred and then see how I felt. I got to 30 and quickly flushed, washed, left and went to the beis hamedrash. b''H I'm so happy I didn't finish the aveiroh and I now feel like I have the opportunity to make a great breakthrough. Hashem please help me.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 27 Jun 2013 16:06 #210530

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KUTGW!!!!

thank you for the honesty, it took me back to my most recent fall, i also first went searching for pictures that were borderline, and then just to get rid of the nagging urge, i went through wuite a lot to disable the filter, and fell.

Congrats on not falling, it's great chizzuk!!

We're all with you, fighting together!!!

Hatzlacha!
Yankel | My Ladder | Talking to Hashem
I'm just a dude, another guy on this bus.
Have a great day, unless, of course, you made other plans. ~ obbormottel
"Nothing changes as long as everything stays the same" ~ Dov

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 27 Jun 2013 20:43 #210558

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Hi Dr. Watson. Sorry for barging in and Hijacking your thread, but I'm about to do just that.Chachaman wrote:
I'm a bochur so this isn't relevant to me, but I'd like to ask an academic question:

In principle, is it better to try solving the problem without letting your spouse know, or is it part of the recovery process / is it essential to let them know?

In principle, if you're a bachur, and something isn't relevant to you, it is essential not to ask academic questions.
Sorry to both of you.
?דער באשעפער לאווט מיך אייביג. וויפיל לאוו איך עהם
My Creator loves me at all times. How great is my love for him?

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 28 Jun 2013 02:57 #210666

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Dr. Watson, you are not evenb close to being a rosho. This is clear. If you need ecvidence I would be glad to clarify it to you, or can connect you with a few recovering guys in BP and Williamsburgh who can help you see that more clearly. Ashrecha.

Hatzlocha!
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 28 Jun 2013 21:16 #210749

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I'm not so sure Dov because I fell again yesterday, even after saying tehillim 6. The urges were building all day and eventually I just gave in. I'm annoyed with myself because as I said it was a great opportunity. But I suppose it did help to get it out of my system in that I've felt no urges today. So I hope I'm back on track and can stay clean this time.

I suppose a fall lasting 2 days is an improvement from normal. It normally takes a week to get back up.

To be honest I'm very embarrassed to be writing this because of what I wrote yesterday, but I suppose that's a good reason to be writing it.

I think I need to attend the phone conferences more. I fell after it had been about 10 days since I'd attended one, I wonder if there's something in that.

Have a good shabbos everyone.

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 28 Jun 2013 22:44 #210763

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Doc, you're doing great work and your posts on other threads are appreciated.

Consider adding to your taphsic vow the thing you do that leads up to binging on porn or masturbation, rather than the actual act. For example, surfing aimlessly on the web, or searching for any pictures of women, or picking up a mainstream news magazine. Build fences.
Last Edit: 28 Jun 2013 22:44 by AlexEliezer. Reason: typo

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 30 Jun 2013 08:40 #210779

  • Dov
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Hey, Doc, you are welcome to join our Desperadoes any time you decide you may actually be an addict. We are on the 4th step now, but who knows? It might be fun anyhow...

It's too bad that Taphsic does not address the building up of lust at all. All it can do is address the cost of acting out or taking damaging actions. It encourages continuing the secrecy and the terrible lie we tell ourselves that the best person who can get a jailed man out of prison is himself! Of course, Chaza"l told us long ago that ein chavush matir atzmo mibeis ha'asurim. Nu. But taphsic can help us make it on our own, somehow...

I know Guard does not like it when I bash Taphsic. But I am not bashing it - just pointing out some of its limitations. The 12 step program surely has lots of limitations, too, and is surely not for everyone, either. I just like to point out the limitations of Taphsic because I believe that people are genuinely shocked when it fails them. Isn't it nice to know why it may not be working?

Alex's idea of adding preludes to masturbating/etc to the vows or promises, may be a good one - if it can be done right. I tried to suggest to anyone using Taphsic that anything they make a vow on has to be a thing that is essentially MUTAR (permitted to normals). For we are already mushba v'omeid m'har Sinai on anything that is really ASSUR. So why bother making a vow on aveiros at all?

The battle lines must be drawn back.

The reason we do not draw them back, and keep the battle on our turf and in the acting out behaviors themselves, is simple:

We do not really want to give the precursors up! They are just too much fun. "Hey, I accept that I cannot afford to masturbate myself, ok? Now I need to even live without the pleasure and relief of playing with my 'struggle' with the sweet, tempting porn, too? What a killjoy! How can I give that up?"

So we don't. We just keep 'struggling' with lust...but where I come from (program), 'struggling' with something, is using it. Still holding onto it - OK, so it is being held onto with a Full Nelson or a Choke Hold...so? Notice, we are still locked together! Lust cannot be 'killed'. For a true addict, endeavoring to 'finish lust off', 'finally beat it', or even just to 'fight it', is code for pretending we are against it, while really just holding onto it. Nothing more, nothing less.

Hashem yazileinu.

(and He does!)



P.S. Did that come off as preachy?
Admin put these lines here cuz he likes 'em:
"The heart needs to be broken when will-power is not enough"
"Get off the 18-Wheeler and onto a tricycle!"
"The heck with me, what can I do for you?"
"I do not particularly care exactly which "lav" suicide is. I'm not interested in it for other reasons!"

Re: From a deep pit to a tall roof 01 Jul 2013 18:08 #210863

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Dov wrote:
I tried to suggest to anyone using Taphsic that anything they make a vow on has to be a thing that is essentially MUTAR (permitted to normals). For we are already mushba v'omeid m'har Sinai on anything that is really ASSUR. So why bother making a vow on aveiros at all?


I just found this,

מדרש רבה ויקרא פרשה כג פסקה יא
(יא) אמר ר' יוסי שלשה הן שתקף יצרן עליהם ונשבעו לו יוסף דוד ובועז יוסף מנין שנאמר (בראשית לט) ואיך אעשה הרעה הגדולה רב הונא בשם ר' אידי אמר כלום המקרא חסר וחטאתי לה' אין כתיב כאן אלא לאלהים נשבע ליצרו ואמר לאלהים אני חוטא ואיני עושה הרעה הגדולה דוד מנין שנאמר (ש"א כו) ויאמר דוד חי ה' כי אם ה' יגפנו למי נשבע רבי יוחנן ורשב"ל ר"י אמר ליצרו נשבע וריש לקיש אמר לאבישי נשבע א"ל חי ה' אם תגע בו אני מערב דמך בדמו הה"ד (שם) ויאמר דוד אל אבישי אל תשחיתהו בועז מנין שנאמר (רות ג') חי ה' שכבי עד הבקר רבי יודן ורבי חמא ר' יודן אומר כל אותו הלילה היה יצרו מפתהו בדברים ואומר לו את פנוי והיא פנויה אתה מבקש אשה והיא מבקשת איש ליצר הרע נשבע חי ה' ולאשה אמר שכבי עד הבקר א"ר חנינא (משלי כד) גבר חכם זה בועז ואיש דעת מאמץ כח שגבר על יצרו בשבועה:

ספר אורח לחיים - פרשת מטות
איש כי ידור נדר לה' או השבע שבועה לאסור איסר על נפשו וכו' (ל, ג). מה שאמר כפל, ידור נדר השבע שבועה. אפשר לומר דרבותינו ז"ל דרשו בנדרים דף ט"ז (ע"ב) שהנדרים חלין על דבר מצוה, ממה שאמר נדר לה', אף על פי שנוגע לה' חל הנדר, לכך אמר כפל ידור נדר, האחד מורה על נדר שאינו נוגע לה', ואחר כך נדר לה' אף על פי שנוגע לה' חל הנדר:
ומה שאמר השבע שבועה כפל, אפשר לומר שמצינו שבועה אצל בועז (רות ג, יג) חי ה' שכבי עד הבוקר, ונשבע נגד יצרו שלא יעבור עבירה. וכן מצינו שאמר דוד המלך ע"ה (תהלים קיט, קו) נשבעתי ואקיימה וכו'. ובשני מיני שבועות שמצינו שנכון לישבע עליהם, כשהיצר מתגבר לעבור על מצות לא תעשה של נדה שבועז נשבע עליו, או לקיים משפטיו היינו מצות עשה שדוד ע"ה נשבע עליהם, ובשניהם הוא מושבע ועומד מהר סיני, הן לקיים מצות עשה הן שלא לעבור על מצות לא תעשה ח"ו. אבל אם נשבע לבטל המצוה אינו חל. וזהו שאמר או השבע שבועה, כלומר על דבר שהוא שבועה מכבר מושבע ועומד מהר סיני, כנ"ל:


Is it a סתירה?
Yankel | My Ladder | Talking to Hashem
I'm just a dude, another guy on this bus.
Have a great day, unless, of course, you made other plans. ~ obbormottel
"Nothing changes as long as everything stays the same" ~ Dov
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